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Friday, December 11, 2009

Is Jesus the God of the Old Testament? -r

Being moved to: http://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/04/god-ot.html


This is in response to a site that claims that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament; since we have discussed most of the scriptures individually elsewhere,  for most scriptures we are simply providing links to the discussion.

Unless stated otherwise, the World English version of the Bible is used throughout, with forms of the holy name supplied at appropriate places.

We first wish to state that there is not one scripture in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that says that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One has to imagine, assume, add to and read that thought into, any scripture that is presented to allegedly "prove" that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No where is the glory that only belongs to the Most High ever attributed to the son of the Most High. -- Isaiah 42:8; Luke 1:32.

The God of the Old Testament identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He identified Himself by the name EHYEH (often rendered as "I am")/Yahweh (Jehovah).

Exodus 3:6 - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Exodus 3:13 - Moses said to God, "Behold, when I come to the children of Israel, and tell them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you;' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' What should I tell them?"
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "[EHYEH ASHER EHYEH]," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: "[EHYEH] has sent me to you."
Exodus 3:15 God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'YAHWEH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.

EHYEH and YAHWEH are two different forms of the one holy name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Bible nevers speaks of more than one holy name of God.

See:
Jesus is Not Yahweh (Jehovah)

The Unipersonal God of Jesus

Jesus called the God of the Old Testament, "My God." In doing so, he speaks of the God of the Old Testament as one person, not three persons.

Matthew 27:46 -- About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" That is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34 -- At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is, being interpreted, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

John 20:17 -- Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"

Revelation 3:12 -- He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

In foretelling the Messiah sent by Yahweh, Micah 5:4 refers to Yahweh as "his God."

Micah 5:4 - He shall stand, and shall shepherd in the strength of Yahweh, In the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God: And they will live, for then he will be great to the ends of the earth.

In speaking to the Son of the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to as "your God."

Psalms 45:7 -- You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

Hebrews 1:8,9 -- of the Son he says... You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=367

Hebrews 1:1,2 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, and says that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob speaks to us through His son.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=772

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to in the New Testament unipersonally as the God and Father of Jesus. -- Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 2 Peter 1:3.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=263

Acts 3:13-26 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a unipersonal God, who has raised Jesus up as the prophet like Moses (as foretold in Deuteronomy 18:15-19), and who has raised Jesus up from death.

Revelation 1:1,4,5 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person (not three), who gave the Revelation to Jesus (another person who is not God who gave the Revelation to him.)

Revelation 1:8 quotes the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus (Revelation 1:1,2), the one whom Jesus refers to unipersonally as "my God" in Revelation 3:12.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=66

In many translations, in Revelation 1:6 "God" -- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who speaks through his Son, is referred to unipersonally as the God of Jesus.

He made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. -- Revelation 1:6

It is the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus and who is being quoted in Revelation 1:8.

Revelation 1:17,18 and Revelation 2:8 speaks of Jesus as the first and the last firstborn of the dead. "First and Last" certainly does not mean the Most High, not unless you believe the Most High was dead, and needed to made alive.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=911

Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13 both refer to the unipersonal God spoken of in Revelation 1:1,2.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=325

Matthew 28:18 shows that Jesus is not the Almighty, since the power spoken of given to him; the Almighty does not need anyone to give to him power, since he already is the source of all might in the universe. If Jesus as some point was given the power of being the Almighty, this would also mean that at some time Jesus was not the Almighty. Additionally, Paul states that it is evident that the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
See our study on "All Power."

Likewise, in John 17:2, Jesus does not claim this authority as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but this authority is given to him by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. John 17:1,3 shows that Jesus believed that his Father is unipersonally "the only true God." Nor does the authority given by the only true God to Jesus mean that Jesus, by receiving this authority from only true God became the only true God due to having receiving this authority; this would mean that before Jesus was not the only true God until he received the authority from the only true God; of course, in reality none of this means at all that the authority that Jesus received from the only true God means that Jesus is the Most High, the Almighty, or the only true God.

In Acts 10:36, the one being referred to as the "Lord of all" probably is "God" who is being spoken of as doing these things by means of Jesus the Anointed One. (Acts 2:34-36) "God" is being used unipersonally of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as can be seen by Acts 10:38, where it says "God anotinted him [Jesus] with the Holy Spirit and with power." Isaiah 61:1 has the Anointed One saying: "Yahweh has anointed me." Acts 2:36 speaks of this God unipersonally saying "God made him [Jesus] both Lord and Christ [Anointed One]." Thus, even if Jesus is spoken of as "Lord of all" in Acts 10:36, Jesus is such because the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made him both Lord and Christ (Anointed One). Again, it is evident that in anointing Jesus, the glory that only belongs to the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.

See our study: "Lord of All"

Ephesians 1:20-22 - See our study "Far Above All Rule, Authority, Power"

In Philippians 2:9, Paul again identifies the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, saying "God also exalted him (Jesus)." "God" here refers to one person; Jesus is not spoken of as the Most High, since Jesus is the one that as being spoken of being exalted by the Most High, and it is evident that Jesus is not being included in "God" who exalted Jesus. Thus, rather than claiming that Jesus is the Almighty Yahweh, Paul shows that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Likewise, the Most High does not need another to give him a name, an office, as the Most High, for he, by nature of his being the Most High, is the Most High innate. On the other hand, Jesus is given a name, that is an office, that above every name. Again, it is evident that the name of the Most High is excluded, since it is the Most High is the One who is given this "name" to Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:27) Thus, Philippians 2:9,10 shows that Jesus is not the Most High, the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Philippians 9:11 shows that all homage given to Jesus is is to the glory of the unipersonal God (spoken of in Philippians 2:9), the Father of Jesus.
See our study: "Humility of Mind"

Daniel 7:13,14 - I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

There is absolutely nothing here that indicates that the one "like a son of man" is the Almighty. And like the other scriptures, if what is said here means that Jesus is the Almighty, then it would mean that he was not the Almighty until the dominion was given to him from unknown source who would evidently need to be greater than the Almighty. In reality, since this dominion is given to Jesus by another, then this scripture actually proves that Jesus is not the Almighty.

Neither in the Old Testament or the New Testament do we find anything that reveals Jesus as the God of the Old Testament; that idea does indeed have to imagined beyond what is written, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to allegedly prove that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh).

For study on the following scriptures, links are provided to show that the scriptures presented offer no proof of the trinity, or that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.

Matthew 28:19
The Baptismal Name

2 Corinthians 13:14
The Three Be With You

1 Peter 1:2
See the study: "Peter Presents the Trinity?" -- Click Here to search the RL site for 1 Peter 1:2.

Deuteronomy 32:6
See the study: "Click Here to search the RL site for Deuteronomy 32:6.

Isaiah 63:16
See the study: "You are Our Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 63:16

Isaiah 64:8
See the study: "The Potter, Father of Israel -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 64:8.

Malachi 1:6
See the study: A Son Honors His Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Malachi 1:6.

Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18
See the study: The Spirit of Yahweh on the Anointed One -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 61:1.

2 Corinthians 3:17
See the study: Yahweh, the Spirit


Revelation 1:4 -- Is Jesus called "who is and who was and who is to come?
See the study: Who Is, Was, To Come - Jesus?

Revelation 11:17 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 15:3 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 16:7 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 16:14 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 19:6 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 19:15 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.


Revelation 21:22 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.


Revelation 1:8 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.


Revelation 22:17 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.


Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
See our study: Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last

For an examination of scriptures that are presented from the various books of the Bible, click on the name of the books below (not all links are ready yet; additionally, more scriptures are still being added to the results):

Genesis * Exodus * Deuteronomy * Judges * Psalms * Ecclesiastes  * Isaiah * Jeremiah * Ezekiel * Daniel * Hosea * Micah * Malachi * Matthew * Mark * Luke * John * Acts * Romans * 1 Corinthians * 2 Corinthians * Galatians * Ephesians * Philippians * Colossians * 1 Thessalonians * 2 Thessalonians * 1 Timothy * 2 Timothy * Titus * Philemon * Hebrews * 1 Peter * 2 Peter * 1 John * 2 John * 3 John * Jude * Revelation

Tuesday, January 6, 2009

Isaiah 9:6 - His Name Shall Be Called

Isaiah 9:5 - For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; - Jewish Publication Society translation. (This is Isaiah 9:6 in most translations)

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.

Isaiah 9:6 is often referred to as proof that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). In reality, the idea has to be added to and read into what the prophecy states.

As we read it from the Jewish Publication Society's (JPS) rendering, we do not find any designation of Jesus as being "God". The JPS renders it via a transliteration of the "name." Most translations ignore that the verse is speaking a "name" (singular), and change the singular "name" to a series of names, with the evident design to make it appear that Jesus is being referrred to as "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father", so that the idea that Jesus is Yahweh can then be read into this. If one recognizes this, then one can see how this argument is circular, saying, in effect, because we believe that this name is not really a singular name as it says it is, but rather a series of names that are applied to the Messiah, then we believe that since Jesus is called "Mighty God", then Jesus is Yahweh.

In reality, Isaiah 9:7 shows that it is Yahweh who is giving this son to Israel. The Holy Scriptures reveal that Yahweh (Jehovah), the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is also the God of Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; Deuteronomy 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; John 5:30; John 6:38; John 17:1,3; John 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 3:2,12.

Yahweh (Jehovah), by means of his holy spirit, shows us through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures ever present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Mark 12:26; Luke 13:35; Luke 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; John 4:34; John 5:19,30,36,43; John 6:57; John 7:16,28; John 8:26,28,38; John 10:25; John 12:49,50; John 14:10; John 15:15; John 17:8,26; John 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; Acts 3:13,22; Acts 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; Colossians 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

Usually, a singular name given to a person or thing is not given a translated meaning as a series of names, as has been done in Isaiah 9:6. The general trend is that a “name” such as this given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and by giving such a name to a human or thing is not understood to designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. For example, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel (Genesis 33:20), this could also be read as a series of "names", as most do in reading Isaiah 9:5, giving it the meaning: “God, The God, Israel.” Applying the same logic that most apply to Isaiah 9:6, we could then proclaim that this altar is God. In reality, such a "name" is meant to be understood as a sentence speaking of the God of Israel. Therefore, we should realize that he was not saying that the altar was “God,” or that the altar was “the God,” nor that the altar was Israel, but instead that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob’s (Israel’s) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: “God is the God of Israel,” or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: “Powerful is the God of Israel.”

So what about Isaiah 9:6? Likewise, the singular name should be understood as a sentence describing the God of Messiah rather than as a series of names that are applied to the Anointed of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.” From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the only Most High, Yahweh, the Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

But let us suppose that the phrase "El Gibbor" (Mighty God) is actually applied to Messiah, rather than to One who makes/anoints the Messiah. Would this mean that Jesus is Yahweh his God, the God who anointed and made him the Christ, the Messiah? (Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38; Hebrews 1:9) Absolutely not! First, we should note that this name is not given to the Son of Yahweh until after he has been given by Yahweh to Israel. It has no application to Jesus in a pre-human existence.

In keeping with the rest of the scriptures, the application of the phrase "EL GIBBOR" to Messiah, usually rendered as "Mighty God", would only mean that the Anointed One is given power and might by the only true God. This usage is demonstrated by the King James Version rendering in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The expression "Mighty God" (el gibbor) is applicable to Jesus in a similar, but greater sense, as it was applicable to the Babylonish kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. In that verse, the phrase is not translated as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually translated as something like, "The strong among the mighty." (King James Version) Applying a similar rendering to Isaiah 9:6 would give us "strong one among the mighty", or, if it is to be rendered as a separate title, "mighty one of power." Jesus is indeed a mighty one of power, having been given all the plenitude of might bodily that he needs to carry out the purposes of his God and Father. (Colossians 2:9,10) Jesus, since his resurrection, has also become the "everlasting father," "the life-giving spirit," since it is through, by means of, him that the human race is regenerated / made alive. (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45) Those regenerated in this age are regenerated by tasting of the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5), receiving the holy spirit as an earnest, a down payment of that which is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14) None of this means that Jesus is his God and Father, the only true God who sent Jesus. -- John 17:1,3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3.

See also other places where this scripture is discussed:
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,405.0.html
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/
http://godandson.reslight.net/isaiah9-6.html
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,181.0.html

Written by others (I do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given):

Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

Why is Jesus called "Mighty God" at Isa. 9:6?


This post is a partial response to:
http://onthisstone.blogspot.com/

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