Trinity in the Bible?

Isaiah 9:6 - He Doth Call His Name

2011-10-14T07:56:00.000-07:00

For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. -- Isaiah 9:6, Young's Literal Translation.

As given in Young's translation, it shows that the titles are anarthrous, without the definite article "the" before each title. Of course, the capitalization of these "titles" are also added be the translators. In the Hebrew, the phrase rendered "Mighty God" is usually transliterated as "EL GIBBOR".

If "mighty God" should be understood as being a title of Jesus in this verse, we should note how such a title would apply to one who is not Yahweh, rather than to assume that Jesus is here being referred to as Yahweh. Since it is Yahweh, the only true God who, in context (Isaiah 9:7), is performing these things, the default assumption should be that child being given by Yahweh is not Yahweh. The scriptures present to us the fact that it is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who anoints the Messiah -- thus making the one sent by Yahweh into the Messiah. (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 10:38) Again, the default reasoning should be that Yahweh is not the Messiah who was sent by Yahweh.

But, how could the title "mighty god" be applied to the Messiah, if the Messiah is not Yahweh? What many do not realize is that there is a Hebraic usage of the words that are often rendered as "God" wherein the words are used in more general sense of "might", "strength", or "power." Form of the word "EL", as can be seen by consulting any good Hebrew concordance, is often translated by various words of general designation of might, power, etc. Such a usage is shown in the King James rendering of the same phrase (EL GIBBOR, only in a plural form) in Ezekiel 32:21. We do not know of any translation that renders the expression in Ezekiel 32:21 as "Mighty Gods", but it usually rendered similar to the King James Version, which renders it as "The strong (a form of the Hebrew EL) among the mighty (a form of the Hebrew Gibbor)." Thus, in Isaiah 9:6, if this expression as "mighty god" is assumed to be a title for the Messiah, the anointed of Yahweh, who, by default, should be assumed to therefore not be Yahweh, then it should also be understood as in Ezekiel 32:21, "a strong one among the mighty." Jesus is indeed a strong one among the mighty, but he is not his Supreme Being.

Likewise, if the title "everlasting father," is to be understood as being applied to the Messiah, it should be understood in light of what Messiah became after his resurrection, the "last Adam," who "became the life-giving spirit," who, in effect, is takes Adam's place as the life-giver to the world. Unlike Adam, who disobeyed and became father only to a dying race (1 Corinthians 15:21,22), Jesus becomes father forever, thus "everlasting father."

However, the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 depicts a singular name; it does not depict a series of names or titles as is given by most translations of this verse. That singular name is usually transliterated as Pelejoezelgibborabiaadarshalom. Often such a "name" given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and the application of such a name does not designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. Thus, for instance, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel, which could be read as a series of titles: God, The God, Israel, we realize that this is not what Jacob meant by this. Rather, we understand that he was not saying that the altar was "God," or that the altar was "the God," nor that the altar was Israel, but rather that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob's (Israel's) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: "God is the God of Israel," or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: "Poweful is the God of Israel." Likewise in Isaiah 9:6, since it is directly stated in the singular as a name, not plural, as "names", we believe it more correctly to be understood as describing Yahweh, not the Messiah who comes in the name of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the God and Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

Nevertheless, as I shown above, even if Isaiah 9:6 should be viewed as a series of titles describing the Messiah himself, it still does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh who sent Jesus. There is definitely nothing in the verse about three persons in one God, the trinity.

No Savior Besides Yahweh

2011-07-05T16:15:00.000-07:00

It is often asserted that in Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; and Hosea 13:4; Jehovah (Yahweh) asserts that he alone is the savior. From this trinitarians, as well as some others, entertain the thought that if Jesus is the savior of the world, then, according to their application of the above verses, since only Yahweh is the savior, then Jesus must be Yahweh. The trinitarian then calls upon the spirit of human imagination to further claim that this means that Jesus is a person of Yahweh, the only true God.

Isaiah 43:11 -- WEB
I, even I, am Yahweh; and besides [Bil`adey, apart from, except, without] me there is no savior.
Isaiah 45:21 -- WEB
Declare you, and bring [it] forth; yes, let them take counsel together: who has shown this from ancient time? who has declared it of old? Haven't I, Yahweh? and there is no God else besides [Bil`adey, apart from, except, without] me, a just God and a Savior; there is no one besides me.
Hosea 13:4 -- WEB
"Yet I am Yahweh your God from the land of Egypt; And you will know no god but me, And besides [Biltiy, excepting] me there is no savior.

There are several things to note about all these scriptures wherein Yahweh says that besides him there is no savior.

(1) Although there are hints related to in the context of some of the prophecies of the coming salvation by means of Jesus, Yahweh is not directly speaking of himself as being the savior of the world, but directly as the deliverer of Judah and Israel. -- Isaiah 43:1,3,12; 45:4,5,11,15,25; Hosea 13:1,2,4

(2) Yahweh is speaking of himself as compared to the false would-be saviors (idol-gods, kings, etc.) of the heathen nations, or even their own kings (Isaiah 43:9; 45:21; Hosea 13:1,2,10) that the Israelites seemed to be constantly going to for deliverance, as apart from Yahweh.

(3) The Hebrew words for besides means "except, without, etc.," and does preclude the thought that Yahweh could send another who is not Himself as savior of Israel. Indeed, Yahweh sent many saviors to Israel, all of which were not without, or in exception of, Yahweh, but were in accord with Yahweh.Saviors sent by Yahweh are not “apart from” Yahweh, or “without” Yahweh. Nevertheless, by their being sent by Yahweh and coming in his name signifies that Yahweh is still the only ultimate savior, thus it could still be said that there is no savior besides (without, apart from) him. -- Judges 2:18; 3:9-15; 1 Samuel 12:10,11; Nehemiah 9:27; 2 Kings 13:5; 14:27.

(4) There is no savior apart from Yahweh, but being the savior, He does appoint others as saviors with whom he is with, and in this manner he sent his son as savior of the world. However, this does not deny that besides Yahweh there is no savior, since Yahweh is the one who is the ultimate author of the salvation he provides by means of his Son. Nor is Yahweh's son besides, aside from, Yahweh, since Jesus was sent by Yahweh. It is as Samson stated to Yahweh: “You have given this great deliverance [salvation] by the hand of your servant.” (Judges 15:18) And Yahweh spoke of David: “By the hand of my servant David I will save my people Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.” (2 Samuel 3:18) And Psalmist said: “You led your people like a flock, By the hand of Moses and Aaron.” (Psalm 77:20) Likewise, God sent Jesus that “the world should be saved through him” (John 3:16,17) so that “the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) In Romans 6:23, the word "God" signifies one person, not three. Rather than being apart from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we read that "God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him." (Acts 10:38; See Isaiah 61:1) In Acts 10:38, the word "God" signifies one person, not three. The salvation from God by means of Jesus is not apart from Yahweh, for Yahweh is the one who has provided the salvation through Jesus. "All things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 5:18) "God" in 2 Corinthians 5:18 refers to one person, not three persons, and that one person is held as distinct from "Jesus Christ (meaning anointed one, the one anointed by Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- Isaiah 61:1).

Responding to Winging It

2010-11-13T12:20:00.001-08:00

This is in response to:
My Trinity Question

I am not here addressing what is stated there in detail, but mostly giving links to where I have discussed the points before. Please note that I am not just addressing what is present in the original post, but all what is presented in the comments.

Preliminary:

Jesus is Not Yahweh

The God (Supreme Being – The Might) of Jesus (Scriptures)

Who is Jesus?

John 1:1

John 1:1 proves that Jesus was deity (mighty) with (or towards) the only true Might of the universe (John 1:1,3,5), the source of all might; it does not prove that Jesus is in the only might of the universe.

If Jesus is the Might whom he is with, then Jesus is the Father, for Jesus identified whom he was with in John 17:1,3,5. Jesus was with the only true God, thus, the default is that Jesus is not the only true God whom he was with. Even most trinitarian say that the first theos is not being used in the same manner as the second theos, for they use their imagination and form the assumption that the first theos is not speaking of three persons, but rather of one of the alleged persons of their triune God, while the second theos does not speak of the three persons, but the alleged second persons of their triune God. Yes, it is obvious that the second theos is not used in the same manner as the first theos. In the text John emphasizes the difference between his usage of theos by repeating that the Logos was with God.

There is Only One True God

The Logos of God

What Beginning?

John 1:1 and Trinitarian Assumptions

The Logos was Theos

John 1:1 - In the Beginning

Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”

If Jesus is the Might whom he is with, then Jesus is the Father, for Jesus identified whom he was with in John 17:1,3,5. Jesus was with the only true God, thus, the default is that Jesus is not the only true God whom he was with. Even most trinitarian say that the first theos is not being used in the same manner as the second theos, for they use their imagination and form the assumption that the first theos is not speaking of three persons, but rather of one of the alleged persons of their triune God, while the second theos does not speak of the three persons, but the alleged second persons of their triune God. Yes, it is obvious that the second theos is not used in the same manner as the first theos. In the text John emphasizes the difference between his usage of theos by repeating that the Logos was with God.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/tag/john-11

Romans 9:5

See:

Who is Over All

2 Corinthians 3:17

Yahweh, the Spirit

1 Timothy 6:15,16

The Only Ruler Who Possesses Immortality

ELOHIM

Elohim – Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?

Genesis 1:26 – Let Us and Elohim

Hebrews 1:8 – Why is Jesus called “Elohim” and “Theos”? Psalm 45:6,7

Genesis 1:1 – Elohim

Emmanuel

Matthew 1:23 – Immanuel, God with us

Son of God

In the expression, Son of God, the word "God" signifies one person, not a triune God, which agrees with the usage of the singular word "God" all through the Bible. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as one person, and not once as more than one person. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as a distinct individual from His son.

The Unipersonal God Spoke Through His Son

Son of God and Son of Man

John 5:18

The Jewish Leaders' "Cause" to Kill Jesus

I Am

“I am”

Creator

The "all" that the unipersonal God (Colossians 1:2,13-15) created by means of Jesus does not include the first born creature, since it is evident (1 Corinthians 15:27) that God is not created at all, and that Jesus was created before that "all" which was created through, by means of, him. -- Colossians 1:15,17.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/tag/colossians-116

The all that came into being through Jesus in John 1:3 refers to the world of mankind, as described in John 1:10, and which Jesus refers to in John 17:5. Paul refers to this world in Romans 5:12, showing how it had become corrupted through sin. (see 2 Peter 1:4) Paul again refers to this world in Romans 8:19-22 and refers to this as "all creation" in verse 22. This "all creation", however, does not include the angels, for the angels who see the face of God (Matthew 18:10) have not been subjected to futility. -- Ecclesiastes 1:2,13-15.
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/tag/john-13

Yes, there is only one being in the universe so has not been created. The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, identifies that one being as one person, and never as more than one person. Nevertheless, while it may be that the thought of self-existence is included in Ehyeh (I am, I will be) and Yahweh (He is, He will be), I believe that the Holy Name declares that the Creator is and will be Who He is, that is, He is and will who He is and thus does not deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13); His word is trustworthy. -- Isaiah 55:11; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18.
Focus on the Holy Name

More to follow, God willing...

John 10:30 - Jesus and His Father are One

2010-02-01T14:09:00.000-08:00

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Jesus is one with his God and Father. -- John 10:30.

Many wish to imagine that when Jesus said that he was one his God and Father, that he meant that he and his Father are one God, or one being. In reality, there is nothing in what Jesus said that indicates that he was saying that he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One has to use the spirit of human imagination to make the scripture mean such. There is certainly nothing in the scripture that gives any indication that Jesus was saying that he was a person of a triune God.

Jesus prays for his followers to be one, just as he is with his God and Father. -- John 17:11.

Jesus prays that his followers may all be one, just as he is one with his God and Father. -- John 17:21.

Jesus prays that his followers may be one in himself and his Father, just as he is with his God and Father. -- John 17:21.

Jesus prays that his followers may one, just as he is one with his God and Father. -- John 17:22.

Nothing in any of this means that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who sent Jesus.

The Greek word for the adjective "one" is hen [which is neuter], not mia [feminine], as in the trinitarian formula: treis hypostaseis en mia ousia (three persons in one being). Notice that ousia is feminine, and thus the Greek calls for the feminine form of the word for one, that is, mia. Nor is it speaking of "one God", for then Jesus would have used the word heis (masculine) in order to match the Greek word for God (which is masculine), as Paul does in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Likewise, if Jesus meant that he and his Father were one Father, then he would have used the masculine heis, since the Greek word 'AB is masculine. His choice of the Greek neuter indicates that he is using the adjective "one" to describe a relationship that is defined by a Greek neuter word. More than likely, in view of the way Jesus uses same word in connection with his and his father's relationship to the followers of Jesus, Jesus is referring a union that reflects his being in agreement with his God and Father, as perhaps "one mind", as in Revelation 17:13, or one spirit (as disposition), as Philippians 1:27.

Genesis 1:1,26 - God Speaks to His Son

2010-01-02T13:36:00.000-08:00

Genesis 1:1- In the beginning GOD created...
Genesis 1:26- Let US make man in OUR image...

There is nothing in this verse (or any other verse in the entire Bible) that identifies Jesus as "God."

The Word "God" (ELOHIM) is speaking of only one person in Genesis 1:1, not three persons. Trinitarians claim that God's spirit is the third person of their triune God, but ELOHIM in verse 2, even from the trinitarian standpoint, has to refer to one person since the spirit is spoken of in that verse as belonging to ELOHIM.

In Genesis 1:26, the unipersonal God (elohim) speaks to another person who is not himself, saying "Let us..." or "Let's". If I say to a friend, "Let's go to a movie," I am not saying that the person I am speaking to is myself.

The truth is that the idea that God is here speaking to Himself (allegedly as two different persons of Himself) has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what the scripture actually says, and such has to be assumed only to conform to preconceived doctrine, which also has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is used to allegedly support the extra-Biblical doctrine.

For more on this see the following:
"Let us" and Elohim
Who is God Speaking To?

Is Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

2009-12-11T12:19:00.000-08:00

This is in response to a site that claims that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament; since we have discussed most of the scriptures individually elsewhere, for most scriptures we are simply providing links to the discussion.

Unless stated otherwise, the World English version of the Bible is used throughout, with forms of the holy name supplied at appropriate places.

We first wish to state that there is not one scripture in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that says that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One has to imagine, assume, add to and read that thought into, any scripture that is presented to allegedly "prove" that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No where is the glory that only belongs to the Most High ever attributed to the son of the Most High. -- Isaiah 42:8; Luke 1:32.

The God of the Old Testament identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He identified Himself by the name EHYEH (often rendered as "I am")/Yahweh (Jehovah).

Exodus 3:6 - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Exodus 3:13 - Moses said to God, "Behold, when I come to the children of Israel, and tell them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you;' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' What should I tell them?"
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "[EHYEH ASHER EHYEH]," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: "[EHYEH] has sent me to you."
Exodus 3:15 God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'YAHWEH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.

EHYEH and YAHWEH are two different forms of the one holy name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Bible nevers speaks of more than one holy name of God.

See:
Jesus is Not Yahweh (Jehovah)

The Unipersonal God of Jesus

Jesus called the God of the Old Testament, "My God." In doing so, he speaks of the God of the Old Testament as one person, not three persons.

Matthew 27:46 -- About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" That is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34 -- At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is, being interpreted, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

John 20:17 -- Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"

Revelation 3:12 -- He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

In foretelling the Messiah sent by Yahweh, Micah 5:4 refers to Yahweh as "his God."

Micah 5:4 - He shall stand, and shall shepherd in the strength of Yahweh, In the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God: And they will live, for then he will be great to the ends of the earth.

In speaking to the Son of the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to as "your God."

Psalms 45:7 -- You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

Hebrews 1:8,9 -- of the Son he says... You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=367

Hebrews 1:1,2 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, and says that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob speaks to us through His son.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=772

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to in the New Testament unipersonally as the God and Father of Jesus. -- Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 2 Peter 1:3.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=263

Acts 3:13-26 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a unipersonal God, who has raised Jesus up as the prophet like Moses (as foretold in Deuteronomy 18:15-19), and who has raised Jesus up from death.

Revelation 1:1,4,5 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person (not three), who gave the Revelation to Jesus (another person who is not God who gave the Revelation to him.)

Revelation 1:8 quotes the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus (Revelation 1:1,2), the one whom Jesus refers to unipersonally as "my God" in Revelation 3:12.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=66

In many translations, in Revelation 1:6 "God" -- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who speaks through his Son, is referred to unipersonally as the God of Jesus.

He made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. -- Revelation 1:6

It is the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus and who is being quoted in Revelation 1:8.

Revelation 1:17,18 and Revelation 2:8 speaks of Jesus as the first and the last firstborn of the dead. "First and Last" certainly does not mean the Most High, not unless you believe the Most was dead, and needed to made alive.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=911

Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13 both refer to the unipersonal God spoken of in Revelation 1:1,2.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=325

Matthew 28:18 shows that Jesus is not the Almighty, since the power spoken of given to him; the Almighty does not need anyone to give to him power, since he already is the source of all might in the universe. If Jesus as some point was given the power of being the Almighty, this would also mean that at some time Jesus was not the Almighty. Additionally, Paul states that it is evident that the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
See our study on "All Power."

Likewise, in John 17:2, Jesus does not claim this authority as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but this authority is given to him by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. John 17:1,3 shows that Jesus believed that his Father is unipersonally "the only true God." Nor does the authority given by the only true God to Jesus mean that Jesus, by receiving this authority from only true God became the only true God due to having receiving this authority; this would mean that before Jesus was not the only true God until he received the authority from the only true God; of course, in reality none of this means at all that the authority that Jesus received from the only true God means that Jesus is the Most High, the Almighty, or the only true God.

In Acts 10:36, the one being referred to as the "Lord of all" probably is "God" who is being spoken of as doing these things by means of Jesus the Anointed One. (Acts 2:34-36) "God" is being used unipersonally of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as can be seen by Acts 10:38, where it says "God anotinted him [Jesus] with the Holy Spirit and with power." Isaiah 61:1 has the Anointed One saying: "Yahweh has anointed me." Acts 2:36 speaks of this God unipersonally saying "God made him [Jesus] both Lord and Christ [Anointed One]." Thus, even if Jesus is spoken of as "Lord of all" in Acts 10:36, Jesus is such because the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made him both Lord and Christ (Anointed One). Again, it is evident that in anointing Jesus, the glory that only belongs to the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.

See our study: "Lord of All"

Ephesians 1:20-22 - See our study "Far Above All Rule, Authority, Power"

In Philippians 2:9, Paul again identifies the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, saying "God also exalted him (Jesus)." "God" here refers to one person; Jesus is not spoken of as the Most High, since Jesus is the one that as being spoken of being exalted by the Most High, and it is evident that Jesus is not being included in "God" who exalted Jesus. Thus, rather than claiming that Jesus is the Almighty Yahweh, Paul shows that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Likewise, the Most High does not need another to give him a name, an office, as the Most High, for he, by nature of his being the Most High, is the Most High innate. On the other hand, Jesus is given a name, that is an office, that above every name. Again, it is evident that the name of the Most High is excluded, since it is the Most High is the One who is given this "name" to Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:27) Thus, Philippians 2:9,10 shows that Jesus is not the Most High, the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Philippians 9:11 shows that all homage given to Jesus is is to the glory of the unipersonal God (spoken of in Philippians 2:9), the Father of Jesus.
See our study: "Humility of Mind"

Daniel 7:13,14 - I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

There is absolutely nothing here that indicates that the one "like a son of man" is the Almighty. And like the other scriptures, if what is said here means that Jesus is the Almighty, then it would mean that he was not the Almighty until the dominion was given to him from unknown source who would evidently need to be greater than the Almighty. In reality, since this dominion is given to Jesus by another, then this scripture actually proves that Jesus is not the Almighty.

Neither in the Old Testament or the New Testament do we find anything that reveals Jesus as the God of the Old Testament; that idea does indeed have to imagined beyond what is written, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to allegedly prove that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh).

For study on the following scriptures, links are provided to show that the scriptures presented offer no proof of the trinity, or that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.

Matthew 28:19
The Baptismal Name

2 Corinthians 13:14
The Three Be With You

1 Peter 1:2
See the study: "Peter Presents the Trinity?" -- Click Here to search the RL site for 1 Peter 1:2.

Deuteronomy 32:6
See the study: "Click Here to search the RL site for Deuteronomy 32:6.

Isaiah 63:16
See the study: "You are Our Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 63:16

Isaiah 64:8
See the study: "The Potter, Father of Israel -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 64:8.

Malachi 1:6
See the study: A Son Honors His Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Malachi 1:6.

Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18
See the study: The Spirit of Yahweh on the Anointed One -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 61:1.

2 Corinthians 3:17
See the study: Yahweh, the Spirit

Revelation 1:4 -- Is Jesus called "who is and who was and who is to come?
See the study: Who Is, Was, To Come - Jesus?

Revelation 11:17 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 15:3 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 16:7 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 16:14 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 19:6 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 19:15 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 21:22 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 1:8 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 22:17 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
See our study: Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last

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Isaiah 9:6 - His Name Shall Be Called

2009-01-06T08:08:00.000-08:00

Isaiah 9:5 - For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; - Jewish Publication Society translation. (This is Isaiah 9:6 in most translations)

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.

Isaiah 9:6 is often referred to as proof that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). In reality, the idea has to be added to and read into what the prophecy states.

As we read it from the Jewish Publication Society's (JPS) rendering, we do not find any designation of Jesus as being "God". The JPS renders it via a transliteration of the "name." Most translations ignore that the verse is speaking a "name" (singular), and change the singular "name" to a series of names, with the evident design to make it appear that Jesus is being referrred to as "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father", so that the idea that Jesus is Yahweh can then be read into this. If one recognizes this, then one can see how this argument is circular, saying, in effect, because we believe that this name is not really a singular name as it says it is, but rather a series of names that are applied to the Messiah, then we believe that since Jesus is called "Mighty God", then Jesus is Yahweh.

In reality, Isaiah 9:7 shows that it is Yahweh who is giving this son to Israel. The Holy Scriptures reveal that Yahweh (Jehovah), the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is also the God of Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; Deuteronomy 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; John 5:30; John 6:38; John 17:1,3; John 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 3:2,12.

Yahweh (Jehovah), by means of his holy spirit, shows us through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures ever present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Mark 12:26; Luke 13:35; Luke 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; John 4:34; John 5:19,30,36,43; John 6:57; John 7:16,28; John 8:26,28,38; John 10:25; John 12:49,50; John 14:10; John 15:15; John 17:8,26; John 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; Acts 3:13,22; Acts 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; Colossians 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

Usually, a singular name given to a person or thing is not given a translated meaning as a series of names, as has been done in Isaiah 9:6. The general trend is that a “name” such as this given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and by giving such a name to a human or thing is not understood to designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. For example, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel (Genesis 33:20), this could also be read as a series of "names", as most do in reading Isaiah 9:5, giving it the meaning: “God, The God, Israel.” Applying the same logic that most apply to Isaiah 9:6, we could then proclaim that this altar is God. In reality, such a "name" is meant to be understood as a sentence speaking of the God of Israel. Therefore, we should realize that he was not saying that the altar was “God,” or that the altar was “the God,” nor that the altar was Israel, but instead that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob’s (Israel’s) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: “God is the God of Israel,” or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: “Powerful is the God of Israel.”

So what about Isaiah 9:6? Likewise, the singular name should be understood as a sentence describing the God of Messiah rather than as a series of names that are applied to the Anointed of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.” From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the only Most High, Yahweh, the Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

But let us suppose that the phrase "El Gibbor" (Mighty God) is actually applied to Messiah, rather than to One who makes/anoints the Messiah. Would this mean that Jesus is Yahweh his God, the God who anointed and made him the Christ, the Messiah? (Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38; Hebrews 1:9) Absolutely not! First, we should note that this name is not given to the Son of Yahweh until after he has been given by Yahweh to Israel. It has no application to Jesus in a pre-human existence.

In keeping with the rest of the scriptures, the application of the phrase "EL GIBBOR" to Messiah, usually rendered as "Mighty God", would only mean that the Anointed One is given power and might by the only true God. This usage is demonstrated by the King James Version rendering in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The expression "Mighty God" (el gibbor) is applicable to Jesus in a similar, but greater sense, as it was applicable to the Babylonish kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. In that verse, the phrase is not translated as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually translated as something like, "The strong among the mighty." (King James Version) Applying a similar rendering to Isaiah 9:6 would give us "strong one among the mighty", or, if it is to be rendered as a separate title, "mighty one of power." Jesus is indeed a mighty one of power, having been given all the plenitude of might bodily that he needs to carry out the purposes of his God and Father. (Colossians 2:9,10) Jesus, since his resurrection, has also become the "everlasting father," "the life-giving spirit," since it is through, by means of, him that the human race is regenerated / made alive. (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45) Those regenerated in this age are regenerated by tasting of the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5), receiving the holy spirit as an earnest, a down payment of that which is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14) None of this means that Jesus is his God and Father, the only true God who sent Jesus. -- John 17:1,3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3.

See also other places where this scripture is discussed:
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,405.0.html
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/
http://godandson.reslight.net/isaiah9-6.html
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,181.0.html

Written by others (I do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given):

Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

Why is Jesus called "Mighty God" at Isa. 9:6?

This post is a partial response to:
http://onthisstone.blogspot.com/

CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board

Trinity and Christmas

2008-12-23T12:04:00.000-08:00

It is not uncommon to hear trinitarians speak of Christmas as the "birth of God," or even "God's birthday". Of course, Yahweh Himself has never been begotten, conceived, born, or brought into existence, since he has always been in existence. Nor has Yahweh ever been born as a human being, as is often imagined by trinitarians, as well as some others. Thus, the dualistic doctrine of "incarnation" is false (the claim that Jesus was totally and fully God Most High while at the same time totally and fully a human being, a little lower than the angels).

In effect, what is described by the "incarnation" doctrine would end up with the impression that Jesus had two totally different sentiencies at once, for it is claimed that Jesus was and is omniscient, having sentiency of abosolutely everything in the entire universe, while at the same time, Jesus, as a human, only had the sentiency of a human, and was thus not omnisicent. In reality, this would mean that Jesus himself is two persons, one with the omniscient sentiency, and one that does not have the omniscient sentiency.

Likewise, traditionally, the very celebration of "Christmas/Noel" has been associated with the false teaching of the "incarnation", indeed, "the Incarnation of God" is often used almost as a synonym for "Christmas/Noel":

"Christmas - The Incarnation of God."
http://johnmarkhicks.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/christmas-the-incarnation-of-god/

"Christmas Incarnation" "the real meaning of Christmas -- the incarnation of God"
http://www.jesuswalk.com/christmas-incarnation/christmas-incarnation.htm

"The greatest miracle in Christmas is of course Incarnation, the birth of God on earth." "The greatest Miracle the world has ever seen thus is Christmas, the incarnation of God."
http://living.oneindia.in/christmas/2007/christmas-stories/christmas-miracles-christmas-celebration.html

"to celebrate the birth of Jesus and proclaim their belief in the Incarnation (God made flesh)."
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Noel

"Advent and Christmas draw our focus to the mystery of the Incarnation, of God becoming man."
http://thecatholicspirit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=872&Itemid=108

"Christmas is the celebration of the incarnation of God."
http://www.cresourcei.org/cyxmas.html

"the account of incarnate deity.... " (The context shows that the author is using the word "deity" to mean the God of the Bible, the Most High.

"The Feast of the Incarnation... The incarnation of God."
http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/Exhibitions/Noel/angl/incarnat.htm

"a holiday celebrating the birth of God Incarnate."
http://brothersjuddblog.com/archives/2002/12/why_are_there_no_good_chanukah_1.html

"celebrates the birth of Christ and the wonderful mystery of the incarnation" "the good news of Christmas and the incarnation"
http://www.christchurch-cardiff.org.uk/show.pl?Magazine

"Birth of Christ, Incarnation, Nativity and Christmas"
http://www.abcog.org/xmas.htm

"Christmas is the church's celebration of the Incarnation, the supreme mystery that the holy and almighty God took on human flesh and was born in this world of the Virgin Mary."
http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/christmas.htm

"The incarnation of God becoming human and actually living among us is the Wonder of the Christmas story."
http://www.petrafel.org/images/message_transcript/The%20Wonder%20of%20Christmas.pdf

"Christmas focuses on the incarnation of Jesus" "The Incarnation, then, refers to God taking upon Himself a human form. So when Jesus was born into the world, Godfor one time in all human historybecame man!"
http://asiteforthelord.com/articles/theincarnationofjesus.doc

"The Christmas season celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ, the incarnation of God."
http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Worship/Planning/Christmas.aspx

"The Christmas festival is about the incarnation of God"
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/george_pitcher/blog/2008/12/02/christmas_is_for_israel_too___

"the pinnacle of Advent comes with Christmas, when we celebrate the Incarnation of God. "
http://dotnettemplar.net/An+American+Catholics+Thoughts+On+Christmas.aspx

"the very heart and meaning of Christmas ... the wonder of the Incarnation (the birth of God-made-man Jesus)"
http://lichfieldcathedralschool.co.uk/newsmiscthe_chaplains_christmas_message.html

"The Christmas Marvel" "The birth of God! It took place in Bethlehem."
http://www.postchronicle.com/religion/article_212194723.shtml

Thus, by traditional expression, the event described by the word "Christmas", which is often used as a translation and synonym of "Noel", is seen to mean the "incarnation of God," which, by extension, refers to "the birth of God." As such, "Christmas" is really proclaimed by most "Christians" to be a celebration of man's dogma that Jesus is God, especially that of the trinity doctrine, which dogma has to be added to and read into the scriptures. This dogma of man, in effect, would mean to make Jesus himself into an idol, since it ends up proclaiming the creature to possess the glory that only belongs to the Creator Most High.
http://godandson.reslight.net

The false dogma of man --the incarnation of God -- is also expressed in the Christmas carol, "Hark the Herald Angels Sing"

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see;
Hail th' Incarnate Deity,
Pleased as man with men to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel.
Hark! The herald angels sing, "Glory to the newborn King."

http://www.chespres.org/resources/sermons/ChesPres_20061224S.asp
http://wackyanne.tripod.com/musicrm/xmtrad2.htm
http://allspiritchristmas.co.uk/

Another carol, "In the Bleak Midwinter" says:

In the bleak midwinter a stable-place sufficed
The Lord God incarnate, Jesus Christ.

http://www.graceriverforest.org/download/school/Christmas.pdf

Another carol, "How Should A King Come" has the lines:

And a King lay hid in a virgins womb, and there were no crowds to see Him come.
At last in a barn in a manger of hay He came, and God incarnate lay!

http://www.dante.trieste.it/mediadante/anno06_07/caroles06.pdf

Yes, we should "flee from idolatry"
http://idolatry.reslight.net/
http://idolatry.reslight.net/cmas.html

I have also found references to the pagan "noel log", "noel" being used almost as a synonym for "yule".
http://tinyurl.com/8ofs4h
http://tinyurl.com/9qvkmk

See also:
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-7NMryvAjfrUDGdpZP_AvOQ--?cq=1&p=25

Some related books (I do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given by these authors):

Pagan Christmas: The Plants, Spirits, and Rituals at the Origins of Yuletide

Christmas In Ritual and Tradition: Christian and Pagan

Restoring the Biblical Christ: Is Jesus God?

Divine Truth or Human Tradition? - A Reconsideration of the Roman-Protestant Docrtine of the Trinity

CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board

Matthew 12:8 - Lord of the Sabbath

2008-11-08T11:32:00.000-08:00

The following scriptures are presented as proof that Jesus is his God, since Jesus said that he is "lord of the sabbath." It is claimed that this means that Jesus is "lord" over God's law, and that since he is lord of God's law, this means that jesus is God (Jehovah, Yahweh).

From the World English translation:

Matthew 12:8 - For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 - Therefore the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.

Luke 6:5 - He said to them, "The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

The idea that what Jesus said here means that Jesus is his God has to be added to, read into the scriptures by way of assumptions, and then reading those assumptions into what Jesus said. The assumptions are made that since Jesus said that he is lord of the sabbath, that this means that he is lord over God's law, and this further means that Jesus is his God. And the assumptions are made for the purpose of serving the assumption that Jesus is Yahweh.

Jesus said that all things that he has had been given to him by his Father. (Matthew 28:18; Luke 10:22) Jesus further identified his God and Father as the only true God. (John 17:1,3) Thus whatever lordship that Jesus has was given to Jesus by the only true God. Peter said: "God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:36) This agrees with Isaiah 61:1, where the promised one is depicted as stating: "Yahweh has anointed me." The word "Christ" means "anointed one." The only true God, Yahweh, has made Jesus "lord" -- ruler, master -- of all things, excluding God Himself, and this includes the antitype of the "shadow" sabbaths. (Galatians 4:1; Colossians 2:16,17; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:3,17,20-22) Being the the promised son of the man (Matthew 19:28; 25:31; 26:64; Mark 2:10; 14:62; Luke 18:31; 21:27; 22:69), that is, the promised Son, (seed, offspring) of David (Psalm 89:36; 132:11; Isaiah 9:6,7; Isaiah 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15; Matthew 1:1; John 7:42; Acts 2:30; Romans 1:3), Jesus is made lord and given dominion over all -- excluding God, who gives this dominion to Jesus. (Psalm 2:6-8; 45:7; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; 11:2; 42:1; 61:1-3; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; Matthew 12:28; 28:28; Luke 1:32; 4:14,18; 5:17; John 3:34; 5:19,27,30; 10:18,36-38; Acts 2:22; 10:38; Romans 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:27; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Colossians 1:15,16; 2:10; Ephesians 1:17-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2,4,6,9; 1 Peter 3:22) This does not mean that Jesus is the only true God who has made Jesus "lord."

It is also true that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had used Jesus in the making of the ages (Hebrews 1:1,2), which brings up the possibility that Jesus was used by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in giving the Law to Moses, and that, in this sense he could be referred to as "Lord of the sabbath." If this assumption is correct, however, such an application still does not mean that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Nevertheless, "Lord" in the Greek is anarthrous; it does not have the definite article. It is not saying that Jesus is "the" Lord of the sabbath, but rather, Jesus is simply called "Lord" or "Master" of the sabbath. Jesus was "master" of the sabbath, not because he was God, but because he, as the son of the man, that is, as the promised son of the man, David (see scriptures above), being born under the Law (Galatians 4:4), obeyed the Law without failure. Had he disobeyed that law in one small part, he could not have actually fulfilled the Law, and thus he would have nothing to sacrifice, since he would be just as guilty and in need of redemption from condemnation as any other man. (Matthew 5:17; James 2:10) Jesus was therefore, as the promised son of the man, David, master of the sabbath, obeying God's laws concerning the sabbath perfectly. Jesus' obedience, and his sacrifice of right to human life gained by that obedience, fulfilled the Law, and thus the Law was figuratively nailed to the stauros with Jesus. -- Colossians 2:14.

The offering in sacrifice of Jesus' blood and body brought forth the inauguration of another covenant, called the "New Covenant." (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 10:14,29; 12:24; 13:20) Through faith in his blood, the Jew can become counted as dead to the Law (Romans 7:4), counted as having died with Jesus (Romans 6:8,11), so as to belong to Jesus, being imputed justification and sanctified through the blood of the new covenant. -- Romans 3,4.

Additionally, Jesus knew from his God and Father (John 8:28) what was really in observance of the law, and what it was "lawful" to do on the sabbath, as opposed to the strict applications that Jews were making concerning the sabbath. Jesus said "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day." (Matthew 12:12) Some parts of the law apply over other parts of the Law, as Jesus illustrated by David's eating of the shewbread, which was, strictly speaking, unlawful. But "mercy" in the Law is of greater importance in some instances, so that what would otherwise be "unlawful" would be "lawful" -- permitted by the law.

Click Here for some recommended books on the christology.

CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board

Jesus as the Human Son of God

2008-11-06T14:36:00.000-08:00

The claim is made by some trinitarians that the expression "Son of God" means that Jesus is/was 100% God, and yet that Jesus is/was also 100% human. It is further claimed that Jesus was/is not a mixture of the two, since such a mixture is alleged to be an impossibility.

The truth is that, scripturally, it is not a matter of Jesus' being a mixture of two. The scriptures show that the expressions "the son of the Most High", and the "son of God" do not mean that Jesus is the Most High.

Luke 1:30 The angel said to her, "Don't be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Luke 1:31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name 'Jesus.'
Luke 1:32 - He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. [Yahweh] God will give to him the throne of his father, David.
Luke 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end of his kingdom."
Luke 1:34 Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, seeing I am a virgin?"
Luke 1:35 The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one which is born from you will be called the Son of God.

Matthew 1:20 - But when he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take to yourself Mary, your wife, for that which is conceived (gennao -- begotten*) in her is of the Holy Spirit.
============
*See this word used in John 3:3,4,5,6,7,8. The King James Version renders this word various ways, including "begat", "born", "gender", and "bring forth".
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1080

Here we find that the one to be called the "the son of the Most High", "the Son of God," was indeed flesh in the womb of Mary, nothing more, nothing less, except that his flesh, his body, was provided by God Himself, and thus he was not born into this world as a son of disobedience, a son of wrath, under the bondage of corruption. -- Ecclesiastes 1:5; 7:13; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 8:21; Ephesians 2:2,3; Hebrews 10:5; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5.

The scriptures nowhere speak of the birth or begettal of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (who is also the God of Jesus -- Exodus 3:15 (Acts 3:13); Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16; Acts 3:22,23); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12) ; we do find that Jesus "the son of God" was begotten, not as "God" in the womb of Mary, but as a flesh and blood human being, nothing more, nothing less.

The scriptures in no place refer to Jesus as the Most High, but he is "the son of the Most High." -- Genesis 14:22; Psalm 7:17; 83:18; 92:1; Luke 1:32; John 13:16

We have no scriptural reason to add to and read into any of this that "the Son of God" means that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and at the same was a human being who was not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To so reason leads to more and more assumptions that are added to the scriptures to justify the reasoning, such as adding to and reading into the scriptures that since the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is spoken of as the God of Jesus, then Jesus the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is not the Jesus the human being who has as his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Jesus.
Taking this to its logical conclusion would lead to the conclusion that the assumed Jesus the God is not the same person as Jesus the human being who has claimed to be Jesus the God/being who is the God of Jesus.

Trinitarians often present further assumptions which have to be added to the scriptures when it is claimed that Jesus was "begotten" [which means to be brought forth into existence] in eternity, that is, outside of time, and thus it is further claimed that Jesus has always existed since he was begotten [brought forth into existence] outside of time. In reality, such an idea would mean that Jesus was never brought forth into existence, since it is alleged that he has alway existed, and also since no time was existing that would have any relation to his being brought forth into existence. We can definitely say, however, that the begettal in the womb of Mary of the son of the Most High is not referring to any alleged begettal of the son of the Most High in eternity. That which was begotten in the womb of Mary was indeed "the son of the Most High," "the son of God," and not the begettal of a God being/nature of Jesus. (Luke 1:32,35) We should also note that Isaac is spoken of as being born/begotten of the spirit in Galatians 4:29.

We read of others who are said to be "sons of the Most High" in Psalm 82:6. These are evidently the same sons that is spoken of in John 1:11,12, those to whom the Logos came. (John 1:14,11,12; 10:35) These are made "sons of God" through faith in Jesus, and are led by God's spirit, being born -- begotten/brought forth -- of the spirit. (Galatians 3:7; Romans 8:14; John 3:8) The begettal of the spirit then places them in the family of God as sons of the Most High, as new creatures.

Galatians 3:4-6 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a bondservant though he is lord of all: 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed of the father. So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world: but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law covenant, that he might redeem them that were under the law covenant, that we might receive the placement as sons. And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. -- THE REVISED VERSION (American Edition) Improved and Corrected from manuscripts discovered and published to A.D. 1999.

Many trinitarians will admit that the expression "son of the Most High" in Luke 1:31 refers to Jesus as a human, and not as the Most High. In so doing, however, they are unwittingly admitting that "son of the Most High" does not mean that the son is also "Most High". Likewise, the expression "Son of God" does not mean that God reproduced himself as an alleged offspring "nature/being" of God Almighty, but rather that the son brought forth in the womb of Mary was the Christ, whom the Jews recognized was to be "the Son of God." (Matthew 26:63) While in the days of his flesh, the Son of God was flesh, nothing more, nothing less. -- John 1:14; Hebrews 5:7.

Additionally, the word "begotten/born" [brought forth] in the Bible does not necessarily mean to be brought forth of the same substance. This is a false reasoning of man, based on the laws of reproduction that God has placed on the reproduction of his living creation on the earth. (Genesis 1:11,12,21,24) From this it is supposed that these laws of physical reproduction should also apply to the Creator, so that for the Creator to have a son would mean that the Son would be of the same substance as his Father, and thus equal to his Father in every way, that is, he would be a God being/nature. The scriptures, however, never say this.

When Jesus was begotten/born of the holy spirit in the womb of Mary (Matthew 1:20), he was not begotten as a spirit being, but as a human being. If the theory of being begotten produces the same substance from which it was begotten be true, then Jesus as begotten in the womb of Mary was of the same substance as the holy spirit, and would not be flesh at all. However, in reality, that which was begotten in the womb of Mary as flesh, a little lower than the angels, nothing more, nothing less.
http://studies.reslight.net/bos.html

Nor does John 3:3,5,7 offer any proof that being begotten/born of the spirit means that one is a spirit being, as some have assumed. Jesus also said we must be begotten/born of water; does this mean that we are to become water beings, as well as spirit beings? (John 3:5) Obviously, Jesus is talking about something other than becoming water beings or spirit beings as result of the begettal of water and spirit.
http://studies.reslight.net/wb.html

The scriptures show that Jesus was begotten/born/brought forth three times.

(1) as the firstborn creature. -- Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22-25.
http://godandson.reslight.net/jesus-beginning.html

(2) of the holy spirit as a human, born of a woman, under the law, a little lower than the angels. -- Matthew 1:20; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 2:9.

(3) from the dead when he raised from the dead. -- Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5.
http://atonement.reslight.net/raisedspirit.html

CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board

Matthew 4:7 and Luke 4:12

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The World English translation is used throughout this study, unless otherwise noted. The "Holy Name," Yahweh, is supplied in the New Testament at appropriate places.

Matthew 4:7 - Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test [Yahweh], your God.'" King James has "the Lord, your God."

Luke 4:12 - Jesus answering, said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt [Yahweh] your God.'"

Deuteronomy 6:16 - You shall not tempt Yahweh your God.

The above scriptures are being presented as proof that Jesus is God, that is, that Jesus is allegedly a person of the only true God (trinitarian).

A few of the sites where this claim is made:
http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html
http://groups.msn.com/DiscussionForum/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=4936&all_topics=0
http://fellowcatholic.blogspot.com/search/label/CHRISTOLOGY
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080525094053AAEQjXV
http://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080211112726AAxq3F2
http://www.churchofhopeontheweb.org/God/son.htm
http://markcephastan.blogspot.com/2006/10/jesus-new-moses-who-else.html
The above sites are given, not because we believe what they present but for reference only.

Actually, if Satan thought that Jesus was God Almighty then he would have known how fruitless it would have been to try to deceive God so as to provoke God to sin. However, there is no indication whatsoever that Satan thought that he was trying to get Yahweh to sin.

Satan did not think that Jesus was God, but rather the son of God:

"If you are the Son of God." -- Matthew 4:3,6; Luke 4:9.

This was the emphasis that Satan himself was putting on his tests of Jesus, that is, in effect, Satan was saying to Jesus: "I want you to prove that you are son of God by doing this...." In reality, it was Satan's hopes to trick Jesus, to deceive Jesus, into being disobedient. Satan was not asking Jesus to prove that Jesus was God. Certainly Satan would have known if Jesus was Yahweh, and knowing that, would have also known that it would fruitless to try to deceive Yahweh into disobeying or denying Himself.

Let us read the context:

Matthew 4:5 - Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
Matthew 4:6 - and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge concerning you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, So that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"
Matthew 4:7- Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test Yahweh, your God.'"

What did Jesus say? Jesus did not appeal to Himself, so as to tell Satan, I am your God whom you should not test," but rather Jesus appeals on his own behalf to written Word of his God: "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test [Yahweh], your God'" (Matthew 4:7), thereby showing his denial to submit to the temptation of Satan. The expression "your God" refers to Yahweh as the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:14,15), who is also the God of Jesus, the God who sent Jesus. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.
http://tinyurl.com/yukbvs
http://godandson.reslight.net/jesusnotyhwh.html

Jesus was referring to the Law as given to Israel, Deuteronomy 6:16, which words were spoken to the nation of Israel, which was the only nation which had Yahweh as their God by covenant relationship. (Exodus 19:5,6; Deuteronomy 7:6; Amos 3:2) Thus, the words "your God" are in reference to the Israel's God. Was Jesus here claiming that he [Jesus] was Yahweh, and was Jesus telling Satan that he [Jesus] was Satan's God (as though Satan were under the Law through Moses) and that Satan should not be testing Satan's God? In reality, such an idea has to be added to and read into what Jesus said, and such an idea would actually take what Jesus said out of the context of the quote that Jesus gave, so as to apply Jesus as being Satan's God.

On the other hand, Jesus was, by birth, an Israelite, born under the law. (Galatians 4:4) Jesus knew who his God was. Jesus was applying the verse to himself as an Israelite, that he [Jesus], who worshiped Yahweh as his God, should not test Yahweh by submitting to the stunt that Satan was telling him to do.

Therefore, in reality, the fact is that Jesus was not saying to Satan that Jesus was "Yahweh, your God," the God that Satan was not to test.

Click Here for some recommended Bibles.

bibleclaims

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John 10:11,14 - The Good Shepherd

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John 10:11 - I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:14 - I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and I'm known by my own.

Psalm 23:1 - Yahweh is my shepherd: I shall lack nothing.

Ezekiel 34:15 - I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will cause them to lie down, says the Lord Yahweh.

The above scriptures are presented (and sometimes a few others such as: Isaiah 40:10,11; Hebrews 13:20; 1 Peter 2:25; 1 Peter 5:4; Revelation 7:17) with the idea of leaving the impression that Jesus is Yahweh, who is presented as "shepherd" spoken of in Psalm 23:1; Ezekiel 34:15; Isaiah 40:10,11.

While Yahweh claims for Himself the role of shepherd for His sheep, the prophecy in Ezekiel 34 further shows that Yahweh shepherds His sheep by appointing another who is not Himself to perform the actual shepherding. Thus Yahweh shepherds the sheep "through" the one appointed, just he will come to judge the world "through" the one he appointed. -- Psalms 96:13; 98:9; Acts 17:31.

Ezekiel 34:23 - I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.
Ezekiel 34: 24 - I, Yahweh, will be their God, and my servant David prince among them; I, Yahweh, have spoken it.

David here is used to represent the Messiah, who comes from the house of David. Yahweh says that He will "set up one shepherd over" his sheep, and that this one shepherd is to feed them, and he identifies that shepherd as "David." "David," of course, is not Yahweh. David in prophetically used many times in the Old Testament of designate the "the son of the man, David," the Messiah.

The Greek word "Kalos" rendered "Good" in the expression "Good Shepherd" in John 10:11,14 can also mean "Genuine" or "Approved", depending on how it is used in the context. Many before Jesus had claimed to be that shepherd promised by Yahweh in Ezekiel 34:23,24, but Jesus spoke of himself as the "Genuine Shepherd". In view of the context, both in John 10 and Ezekiel 34, it should be apparent that the expression "Good Shepherd" would better be understood as the "Genuine Shepherd" in John 10:11,14.

Only Jesus had kept the Law perfectly, unlike all the false shepherds who came before, thus only Jesus was that "Genuine Shepherd". Only the Genuine Shepherd would be sin-free so as to be able to lay his human being down in death for the sheep. Nevertheless, Jesus never claimed to be Yahweh, to whom the sheep belonged. He claimed that he had been given the sheep by Yahweh, his Father, as we can see from the context of John 10:11,14:

John 10:29 - My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all. No one is able to snatch them out of my Father's hand.

Jesus here speaks of the sheep entrusted to him by his God and Father.

John 17:9 - I pray for them. I don't pray for the world, but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

And thus Jesus acknowledges the actual ownership of the sheep belongs to the only true God who sent him, and the only true God had given these sheep to him. -- John 17:1,3.

Jesus thus corroborates Ezekiel 34.

None of this means that Jesus is his God who appointed Jesus as shepherd of the flock.

Jesus never claimed to be his God. He claimed to be sent by the only true God. - John 17:1,3.

CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board

Hosea 1:7 - Yahweh Saves by Yahweh

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But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by Yahweh their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. -- Hosea 1:7, World English Bible.

Some trinitarians give Hosea 1:7 as an alleged example of two persons who are both called "Yahweh," and thus they offer Hosea 1:7 as an alleged proof of their doctrine of the trinity.

Here Yahweh is is contrasting the House of Judah with the House of Israel. In Hosea 1:6 he says that he will no longer have mercy on the house of Israel. To the house of Israel, Yahweh was, in effect, saying, "You are not my people, and I will not be your [God]." (Hosea 1:9) To the house of Judah, however, Yahweh is saying, "I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by Yahweh their God." Yahweh spoke of Himself by name as their God to emphasize that He, Yahweh, was still the God of house of Judah, and also that it would He, Yahweh, their God, who would deliver Judah, and that their deliverance would not be due to the implements that men use to conquer by means of battle. The JFB Commentary states regarding this:

more emphatic than "by Myself"; by that Jehovah (Me) whom they worship as their God, whereas ye despise Him.

Fausset, A. R., A.M. "Commentary on Hosea 1". "Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible".
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/JamiesonFaussetBrown/jfb.cgi?book=ho&chapter=001.
1871.

Thus, while the house of Israel, as a whole, had come to despise Yahweh, Yahweh was emphasizing that He was still the God of the house of Judah.

What the trinitarian, however, would like for us to do regarding this verse, is (1) assume that the trinity dogma is true; (2) assume that "Yahweh" who is speaking is one person of Yahweh; (3) assume that when Yahweh said "by Yahweh" that this "Yahweh" is another person of Yahweh, who is not the first assumed person of Yahweh who speaking; and (4) then assume that these two assume persons who they claim are both called "Yahweh" are two persons of their alleged triune Yahweh. In reality, there is no need to add and read all these assumptions into the scripture.

James 2:19 - God is One

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James 2:19 - You believe that God is one.

Some trinitarians point to this scripture as proof that God is one. There thought, however, is that "God" means three persons in one God, or as some prefer, God in three persons. Is that, however, what James meant when he said "God is one." Is James speaking of three persons, all of whom are the one God that he speaks of?

James starts out his letter by first differentiating "God" from the "our Lord Jesus Christ." He says, "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ." (James 1:1) He continues to use the word "God" in James 1:5,13,20. In James 1:27 he speaks of "our God and Father." In the second chapter of James, he uses the word "God" in James 2:5, before he uses the word in again in James 2:19. We are not given any hint that James changed the meaning of the word "God" in James 2:19 to mean more than the God and Father as he spoke on in James 1:1,27. James continue identify "God" with the Father in James 3:9. Thus, there is no reason to think that in James 2:19 he is not also referring the Father as that "one" God. This agrees with Jesus' statement that his Father is "the only true God." (John 17:3) Rather than giving us any reason to think of the one God as three persons, James 2:19 in its context vindicates the God and Father of Jesus as the one and only true God. -- John 20:17; Romans 15:6; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3.

Is the Trinity Doctrine a Basic Biblical Doctrine? Part 1

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Is the Trinity Doctrine a Basic Biblical Doctrine?

In reality, we do not find the doctrine of the trinity in the Bible at all, much less find it there as a basic doctrine of the Bible. The idea has to be added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to allegedly claim that the Bible teaches such a doctrine. Jerry Casper has presented a page in which he endeavors to show scriptures both from the Old Testament and the New Testament that are alleged to indicate, or give credence to, the trinitarian dogma.

I will, Yahweh willing, present the scriptures he uses, and sometimes a point that he might raise. In some cases I may give a brief comment. In other cases, I may present links that give a discussion of the scripture. In some cases I may do both.

Matthew 28:18,19 - Verse 18 definitely proves that Jesus is not the Supreme Being, since the Supreme Being, being the source of all power, does not need to have such power given to him.

Matthew 28:19
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/mat-2819/

Matthew 28:19
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=225.0

The "Name" in Matthew 28:19
http://godandson.reslight.net/matt-28-19.html

Matthew 3:16,17

Direct Scriptures where all three are mentioned together
Of course, the fact that the God of Jesus, and the holy spirit of God, are mentioned in the same verses with the God of Jesus, does not mean that all three are persons of the only true God.

1 Corinthians 12:4-6

1 Peter 1:2

Matthew 28:19
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/mat-2819/

Matthew 28:19
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=225.0

The "Name" in Matthew 28:19
http://godandson.reslight.net/matt-28-19.html

One Divine Being:
This, of course, would limit the meaning of the word "divine" to the Supreme Being. The Bible does not do this. The word "divine" comes from forms of the Hebrew word usually transliterated as "EL." These forms are translated in the Greek New Testament as forms of the Greek word usually transliterated as "THEOS." EL, in its basic meaning, denotes, power, strength, might. There is only one "MIGHT" in the universe, and that one MIGHT is the God and Father of Jesus, since He is the source of all might in the universe. There are others, however, to whom the Bible legitimately applies the words for divinity, such as the angels. (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) The saints are called to partake of the "divine nature." Thus, others who receive special mightiness from the only true MIGHT, can also be referred to as divine. This includes the Son of God who was sent by the only true God. -- John 17:1,3.

If one wants to limit the meaning of the word "divine" to the Supreme Being, then that One would be the God and Father of Jesus.

See:

The Divinity of Jesus
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/10/17/divinity/

Was Jesus Divine as a Human?
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=179.0

The Divine Nature in 2 Peter 1:4
http://godandson.reslight.net/divine-nature.html

The Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
http://godandson.reslight.net/hebraictitles.html

Deuteronomy 6:4

James 2:19 - God is One
http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/10/james2-19.html

John 10:30
http://clearblogs.com/jesusandhisgod/2206/John+10%3A30.html

John 10:30 and the Oneness of Yahweh and Jesus
http://reslight.net/john10-30.html

Isaiah 45:5,6

Isaiah 46:9

Old Testament Scriptures Alleged as Indications of the Trinity:

Plurality of the Godhead (elohim):

The plurality of ELOHIM signifies more than one God, not persons who make up one God.

See:
Elohim - Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?
http://godandson.reslight.net/e-p.html

Genesis 1:1-3 as Related to the Trinity Doctrine
http://godandson.reslight.net/gen-1-1.html

Psalm 45:6,7 - Why Is Jesus Called ELOHIM?
http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-8.html

Hosea 1:7
http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/10/hosea-17.html

Yahweh Alleged to Apply to Two Different Personalities:

Genesis 19:24

Zechariah 8:9

Adonai -- Another Word for "God"?

Adonai is not another word for "God." Adonai is a form of the word "Adon," meaning Lord. It is a plural form directly taken from the possessive form adoni (my Lord). Sometime after Jesus died, the Masoretes added a vowel point to Adoni in all places that thought* the word was being applied to Yahweh, thus forming the word plural form Adonai, literally meaning "my Lords." Like many other words in ancient Hebrew, a plural form used in singular settings denotes an intensive usage of the word, similar to the English superior and superlative modes. Such usage of a plural in a singular setting has been called the "plural intensive" usage of a word. As such, the word Adonai, when used of Yahweh, means something like "Supreme Lord."

Plural Pronouns

Genesis 1:26

Unity of the Godhead

Deuteronomy 6:4 - Echad

Genesis 1:5 - It is claimed that the evening and morning illustrate a compound one: one day. This may be, but the evening is not "day," nor is the morning the "day." Thus, applying this to the trinity would mean that God is a compound one, consisting of "parts." This cannot be applied to the trinitarian concept of the trinity, since the trinitarian dogma would not claim that the Father is 1/3 of God, and that the Son is 1/3 of God, and that the holy spirit is 1/3 of God. Such an application would mean that God consists of three parts, none of which separately would be "God."

Genesis 2:24 - It is claimed that echad here illustrates the compound usage of one, which is claimed to apply to the trinity. In actuality, for this apply to the trinitarian concept, then the man would have to equal to the whole of the "one flesh" (the marriage union), and also the woman would have equal to the whole of the "one flesh." "Flesh" in this verse does not mean the substance, since both the man and woman are already "flesh" substance before the union takes place, thus, "one flesh" is used to represent the two parts forming the marriage union. Applying this to the trinitarian concept would mean that God consists of three parts, none of which are "God" separately.

Ezra 2:64 -"The whole assembly together was forty-two thousand three hundred sixty." It is claimed that the usage of echad here supports the trinitarian concept, since the compound usages here includes many persons. Again, for this to support the trinitarian concept, each and every one of the forty-two thousand three hundered sixty persons would each, individually, have to be the "assembly." Each one separately, however, are not the "assembly," but rather are simply components, parts, of the assembly.

Ezekiel 37:17 - It is claimed that the two sticks that become one are an example of the trinity. Again, we have two component parts and go to make up a new "one." Each component part is not the "new" one itself. Applying this to the trinity would mean that God is made up of component parts that are each not "God", but when put together would form into "God."

The Hebrew word "yachid" corresponds to the English word "only."

Angel of Yahweh:

It is claimed that the angel of Yahweh is a person of Yahweh Himself. Actually, the very form "Angel (Messenger) of Yahweh" indicates that the messenger sent by Yahweh is not Yahweh. However, the messenger delivered to words of Yahweh and performed the works of Yahweh, and was thus addressed as Yahweh. A similar example is that of an interpreter in a court room. The interpreter presents the words that is interpreting as though they were his own. The interpreter is then addressed as though he were another for whom he is interpreting.

Yahweh is One

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This page is in response to the following blog page:

http://theophilus-loverofgodsword.blogspot.com/

We will, Yahweh willing, be listing the scriptures from that page on this page, and providing links where one may find more information concerning those scriptures.

Proverbs 1:7

Deuteronomy 6:4

Regarding the Hebrew word ECHAD

For a study on the word ECHAD, see:
http://godandson.reslight.net/echad-one.html

Genesis 2:24
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=122.0

Numbers 13:23

Numbers 34:18

Ezra 3:9

Ezra 6:20

Old Testament Scriptures that are Alleged to "Reveal" the Assumed "Triune Godhead."

Genesis 3:22
http://godandson.reslight.net/gen-3-22.html

Genesis 1:26
http://godandson.reslight.net/gen-1-26.html

Genesis 19:24
http://godandson.reslight.net/gen-19-24.html

Zechariah 2:10, 11
http://godandson.reslight.net/zec2-10.html

Scriptures in the New Testament Alleged to refer to all Three Persons of Triune Godhead As Being Addressed as Yahweh of the Old Testament

Hebrews 1:1, 2 -- Definitely shows that Jesus is not Yahweh who speaks through Jesus, just as he spoke through Moses and the rest of the prophets. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-22.
http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-1-10.html

Psalm 2:7
http://godandson.reslight.net/ps-2-7.html

Hebrews 1:5a & c -- 2 Samuel 7:14

Hebrews 1:6 -- Deuteronomy 32:43 [Septuagint]

Hebrews 1:8, 9 - Psalm 45:6, 7
http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-8.html

Hebrews 1:10-12 - Psalm 102:25-27
http://godandson.reslight.net/heb-1-10.html

Job 38:1, 4

Isaiah 45:20-23 - Philippians 2:9-11 - Romans 14:10, 11

Exodus 3:13, 14 - John 8:56-58
http://godandson.reslight.net/i-am.html
http://reslight.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/i-am-in-john-858/
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=304.0
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=178.0
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/10/12/john8-58/

Jeremiah 31:33, 34 - Hebrews 10:15-17

Daniel 7:9-14

Acts 7:54-56

Revelation 2:23 - Jesus Searches the Hearts

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Revelation 2:23 - I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

This verse is often given by trinitarians as alleged proof that Jesus has omniscience, alleged proof that Jesus is Yahweh., and as alleged proof of the trinity dogma. The thought is evidently assumed that only Yahweh can search the minds and hearts, thus Jesus must be Yahweh, but evidently not Yahweh who sent Jesus (Isaiah 61:1,2), but rather as the alleged second person of Yahweh who was sent by the alleged first person of Yahweh. It is evidently also being assumed that only one who is omniscient could thus search the minds and hearts; and it is further assumed that this offers proof that Jesus is the alleged second person of the assumed trinity.

In truth, Jesus is given this power from his God and Father. Jesus says:

Revelation 2:26 - He who overcomes, and he who keeps my works to the end, to him will I give authority over the nations.

Revelation 2:27 - He will rule them with a rod of iron, shattering them like clay pots; as I also have received of my Father:

Revelation 2:28 and I will give him the morning star.

Note the words "as I also have received from my Father." Jesus here acknowledges that he receives his power from his Father. In Revelation 3:2, Jesus refers to his Father unipersonally as "my God." Of course, what many trinitarians will say is that when Jesus speaks of his Father as "my God," it is the human being Jesus speaking, but when he speaks words that that they assume to mean that he is God, they claim that it is Jesus the alleged God Being speaking. Thus, they would split up Jesus sentences so as to accord his words in this manner. Many would have his words "I will give to each one of you according to your deeds" and "to him will I give authority over the nations" to mean the alleged Jesus as God Being who speaks, but they would separate the phrases "my God" and "I also have received of my Father" with the claim that this is Jesus the human being speaking. Their claim is that Jesus is still a human being now in heaven (thereby denying the basis of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus, "the man who gave himself." -- 1 Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 10:10) and thus in Revelation (as well as in the Gospels) they claim that sometimes it was the human being Jesus speaking while at other times it was the Jesus alleged to be the Supreme Being speaking. Thus, one assumption upon another assumption has to be placed upon the scripture in order to have scriptures to conform the human dogma that teaches that Jesus is Yahweh.

In reality, all the power and authority that Jesus has to judge, search the hearts and minds, etc., has been given to him from his God and Father. "For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son." (John 5:22) Jesus, having been given this authority and power from his God (John 5:19,22,26,27), also gives to those overcome "authority over the nations," just as he received his authority and power from his God. (Does this mean that all who overcome are the Most High?) In effect, Jesus is Yahweh's appointed agent to judge both the saints and the world. By means of this arrangement, Yahweh comes to judge the world by means of the one whom he has appointed. -- Psalm 96:13, 98:9; Acts 17:31.

However, those overcoming saints also receive the authority to rule and judge the nations (the unbelieving heathen), as Jesus said: "He who keeps my works to the end, to him will I give authority over the nations. He will rule them with a rod of iron, shattering them like clay pots; as I also have received of my Father." -- Revelation 2:26,27 -- See Daniel 7:22; Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 20:4.

There is nothing, however, in any of this that means that Jesus is Yahweh.

CLICK HERE for a list of books related to the trinity.

My recommendation of these books do not mean that I endorse all the conclusions and opinions presented by the authors.

John 2:24

2008-10-10T14:56:00.000-07:00

John 2:23 - Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in his name, observing his signs which he did.
John 2:24 - But Jesus didn't trust himself to them, because he knew all people,
John 2:25 -and because he didn't need for anyone to testify concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.

John 2:24 often appears in lists as a scripture that is alleged to prove that Jesus is omniscient, and therefore that Jesus is Yahweh.

Actually, there is nothing in this scripture about Jesus' knowing everything the Father knows. What it does say is that he knew all people, but what does this mean?

The Greek word for "know" here is "ginosko". It is used in a variety of ways. In this context it means that Jesus understood that he could not trust the many in Jerusalem that believed in him. He knew that in a few years they would crucify him. It's similar to saying he understood human nature. The thought here is not that he individually knew every man.

The Greek word for "all" is a form of the Greek word "pas." This word always looks to context as well as just common evidence for what is included or excluded. This word is many times rendered as "all these," designating the "all" is in reference to the context. With this thought in mind, we can see that Matthew is referring to all those in the context who had believed in his name.

However, even if it were referring to all men on earth, it would not necessarily mean that Jesus knew each and every man personally, but it could mean that he knew of the general, fallen, crooked, condition of all men on earth. -- Ecclesiastes 1:15; 7:13.

Nevertheless, having the power also of discerning of spirits (1 Corinthians 12:10), he did not need any man should testify of them, for he knew what was in them. Jesus, with the power of the holy spirit could perceive things that the normal man could not . Peter, for example, knew that Ananias had lied about his offering, but that did not make Peter God. -- Acts 5:3.

Additionally, at some point God gave to Jesus the ability to judge the heart, for all judgment has been given to the Son. -- Isaiah 11:1-4; 42:1; John 5:22,23,27-30; Acts 17:31.

The judgment upon man was already given when God condemned Adam, and resulting perversions of character has been ever since, and Jesus knew this. -- Romans 1:18-2:2; 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.

Even if Jesus had knowledge of every person on earth, this would not mean that Jesus is Yahweh, possessing all the knowledge that Yahweh has. This would only mean that he had been given this ability from the only Most High of whom he is Son.

One has to add to what Matthew said in order to make his words appear to mean that Jesus is omniscient, knowing absolutely everything in the universe.

Matthew 12:25

2008-10-10T13:05:00.000-07:00

Matthew 12:25—“Jesus knew their thoughts.”

This is one of the scriptures that many trinitarians offer as proof that Jesus is omniscient, and thus from this line of reasoning they would like for us to think that Jesus is the Supreme Being, knowing absolutely everything in the universe, and then from this they would like for us to believe that the trinity dogma is true.

(World English Bible translation):
Matthew 12:23 - All the multitudes were amazed, and said, "Can this be the son of David?"
Matthew 12:24 - But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "This man does not cast out demons, except by Beelzebul, the prince of the demons."
Matthew 12:25 - Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.
Matthew 12:26 -If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand?
Matthew 12:27 - If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges.
Matthew 12:28 - But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come on you.

That Jesus knew the thoughts of the Pharisees does not mean that Jesus is "all-knowing," and that Jesus is the Supreme Being. It simply means that Jesus was given this power to know the thoughts of men through God's holy spirit. Jesus declared that he cast our demons by [Greek instrumental "en" -- Strong's #1720, by means of] the Spirit of his God. Likewise, I am sure that he could have also said that he knew their thoughts by means of the Spirit of his God.

The reasonable conclusion would be that Jesus received his knowledge from the only true God who sent him, even as the scriptures and Jesus himself stated many times. -- Deuteronomy 18:15,18; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,43; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; Hebrews 1:1,2; Revelation 1:1.

However, I know that many would like add to and read into these scriptures so as to split Jesus up into two sentient beings, one being who is God the Supreme Being and another being who is man -- a human being, and claim that when the scripture says that in "knowing their thoughts," that this was the God-being, while when Jesus said, "by the Spirit of God," that this was the human being speaking. This, in effect, would make Jesus himself be two persons, not one, since one of these beings would be omniscient in sentiency, while the other would not have that same sentiency. the In reality, there is no reason to add this splitting into the scriptures.

Matthew 18:20

2008-10-08T21:06:00.000-07:00

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them.
World English Bible translation
Matthew 28:20
"Teaching them to observe all things which I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
World English Bible translation

The above words of Jesus are offered as proof that Jesus is omnipresent, one of the acclaimed incommunicable attributes that belong only to the Supreme Being.

At most, however, the scriptures only prove that the God and Father of Jesus has given to Jesus power to be in more than one place at once. That Jesus has been given by his God the power to be present in more than one place at once is not denied. (Matthew 28:18; Luke 10:22; John 3:35; 5:22-27; 1 Corinthians 15:27) As the one appointed by God as "Lord" over the church (Acts 2:36; 10:42; Ephesians 1:22; Hebrews 1:9; 3:2), Jesus would of necessity need to be present in some way with his followers.

And yet the scriptures also say:

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come times of refreshing from the presence [face, person] of [Yahweh],
Acts 3:20 and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,
Acts 3:21 whom the heaven must receive [or, take hold of] until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets that have been from ancient times.

So in some way also Jesus is received, held by, heaven, until the times of restoration of all things.

How is Jesus present with the disciples? The scriptures indicate that he is present by means of the holy spirit, which spirit Yahweh has given to Jesus. -- 1 John 3:24; 4:13; Acts 1:4; 2:33; John 15:26; See also: John 14:17,26; Acts 1:5,8; 9:31; Romans 8:1,9-17; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 3:3; 12:18; Philippians 2:1; 2 Timothy 1:14.

There is nothing, however, in Matthew 18:20; 28:20 that offer any proof that Jesus has an incommunicable attribute of Yahweh. The idea has to be added to and read into these scriptures.

Jesus' Ability to Search Hearts

2008-10-08T20:27:00.000-07:00

According to many the following scriptures prove that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah), since similar language is used of both Jesus and Yahweh. Trinitarians use these scriptures as proof that Jesus is a person of Yahweh. Others may also use these scriptures to support whatever doctrine they might hold to by which they believe that the Son of the Most High is the Most High of whom he is the son.

1 Samuel 16:7 - But Yahweh said to Samuel, "Don't look on his face, or on the height of his stature; because I have rejected him: for [Yahweh sees] not as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but Yahweh looks at the heart."

1 Chronicles 28:9 - You, Solomon my son, know you the God of your father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Yahweh searches all hearts, and understands all the imaginations of the thoughts: if you seek him, he will be found of you; but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever.

Psalm 139:2 - You know my sitting down and my rising up. You perceive my thoughts from afar.

Jeremiah 11:20 - But, Yahweh of Hosts, who judge righteously, who try the heart and the mind, I shall see your vengeance on them; for to you have I revealed my cause.

Jeremiah 17:10 - I, Yahweh, search the mind, I try the heart, even to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings

Jeremiah 20:12 - But, Yahweh of Hosts, who tests the righteous, who sees the heart and the mind, let me see your vengeance on them; for to you have I revealed my cause.

Revelation 2:23 - I will kill her children with Death, and all the assemblies will know that I am he who searches the minds and hearts. I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.

All this shows is that just as Yahweh has ability to judge men's hearts and minds, so has Yahweh, the God of Jesus, given to Jesus this ability (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; John 20:27; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12), even as a similar ability was given to Peter through the holy spirit concerning Ananias and Sapphira's attempted deception. -- Acts 5:1-9.

Since God has given his Son the authority to judge, it would follow that God would give to Jesus the power to judge men's hearts, to know what is the hearts of men.

Isaiah 11:3 His delight shall be in the fear of Yahweh; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;
Isaiah 11:4 but with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the humble of the earth; and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips shall he kill the wicked.
Isaiah 11:5 Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins.

There is nothing in any of these scriptures that should lead us to believe that Jesus is Yahweh, his God, who receives His power and authority from his God, his Supreme Being. -- Psalm 2:6-8; 45:7; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; 11:2; 42:1; 61:1-3; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; Matthew 12:28; 28:28; Luke 1:32; 4:14,18; 5:17; John 3:34; 5:19,27,30; 10:18,36-38; Acts 2:22; 10:38; Romans 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 5:27; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Colossians 1:15,16; 2:10; Ephesians 1:17-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2,4,6,9; 1 Peter 3:22.

RB01 The God and Father of Jesus

2008-10-07T15:05:00.000-07:00

This is the first of a series of planned studies regarding Robert M. Bowman's alleged "Biblical Basis" claims for belief in the trinity.

Point Number 1:

There is only one true God.

Point #2:

This one God is a single divine being, called Jehovah or Yahweh in the Old Testament (the Lord).

Point #3:

The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is God, the Lord.

The scriptures do show that there is only one true God. The one true God is identified in Exodus 3:15 as Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This one true God is the God who sent Moses as a prophet to Israel, to deliver Israel from the land of Eygpt.

It was this same Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and of Moses, who said that he would raise up a prophet like Moses, a prophet who speak in his [Yahweh's] name. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19) Thus, Jesus spoke for this one true God as did Moses and the prophets of the Old Testament. (Hebrews 1:1,2) Therefore, it is Yahweh that Jesus spoke of as "the only true God" who had sent him. -- John 17:1,3.

It is Yahweh who is the "God and Father of Jesus." -- 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 1 Peter 1:3.

It is Yahweh that Jesus speaks of as "my God." -- Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34; John 20:17; Revelation 3:12.

It is Yahweh that Jesus speaks of as the only true God. -- John 17:3.

It is Yahweh that Jesus says that he was with before the world of mankind was made. -- John 1:1,2,10; John 17:1,3,5.

Yahweh, however, does not mean "the Lord." "The Lord" is one of the substitutes that many translations give for the holy name, in effect, changing the holy name of the God and Father of Jesus into "the Lord." The Bible does not say that there are many "holy names" (plural), as some would have us believe. The Bible only speaks of the singular, eternal, "holy name" -- Yahweh (Jehovah).

http://mostholyname.wordpress.com/

Thus our points in this regard is that:

1. There is only one true God.

2. That one true God is identified as "Yahweh" (Jehovah).

3. That one true God is the God and Father of Jesus.

The next points will be discussed in the next study, Yahweh willing...

Click Here for a list of books we recommend regarding the trinity. Our recommendation does not mean that we agree with all the conclusions and opinions given by the authors.

Arius

2008-10-01T10:50:00.000-07:00

Arius and the Deity of Christ

It is often stated that Arius denied the deity of Christ. One such statement appears at:

http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2008/08/biblical-basics-deity-of-christ.html

According to this blogsite:

Arianism denies the deity of Christ in particular and the Trinity in general. It seems to have started with Arius.

What did Arius actually say? It is difficult to know all the details of the teachings of Arius, since practically all that was written by him was systematically destroyed by the trinitarians. What we have is only that which the trinitarian, Athanasius, preserved. Only two letters of Arius were preserved, evidently because these two letters provided the trinitarians with an alledged basis of damning Arius for what he believed. These two letters can be found online (translated into English -- the translation may be biased) at:

http://www2.evansville.edu/ecoleweb/arians/arius1.htm
http://www2.evansville.edu/ecoleweb/arians/arius2.htm

There is nothing in the letters that indicate whether Arius actually claimed to deny the deity of Christ. As far as the limited meaning of "deity" as given by trinitarians, he did deny that Jesus was the Supreme Being. This does not mean that he was denying the attribute "deity" to Jesus in the Hebraic sense, that is, in the sense of might, power, or, of a divine being, similar to the angels. (Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7) Thus, whether Arius was denying the deity of Jesus would depend on what definition one would give to the word "deity."

The might, power, and authority of Jesus was that given to him by the only true Might of the universe, that is, his God and Father. (Psalm 2:6-8; 45:7; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; 11:2; 42:1; 61:1-3; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; Matthew 12:28; 28:28; Luke 1:32; 4:14,18; 5:17; John 3:34; 5:19,27,30; 10:18,36-38; 17:1,3,5; Acts 2:22; 10:38; Romans 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:27; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Colossians 1:15,16; 2:10; Ephesians 1:17-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2,4,6,9; 1 Peter 3:22) Jesus is never depicted as the source of his deity, but rather he is always depicted as receiving his deity -- his power, authority, etc., -- from his God and Father.

The letters of Arius, however, do show that there was and had been for some time a lot of different views of who Jesus was and is. Was Arius presenting a new view? Or was he defending what the Bible says? We should note that Arius describes the view of certain men (that were teaching that Jesus had no beginning) to be that of "heretical opinions." Therefore, he certainly believed that what he was saying was not a new view, but that the other views were the "new" views.

See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/category/names/deity/feed
(If the above link does not work with your browser, use the link below:
http://godandson.reslight.net/archives/category/names/deity

Click here for some recommended books
Our recommendation does not mean that we agree with all the conclusions that the authors present.

Visit the site: Jesus and His God
for more information about Jesus and his God.

John 1:1,2 (MMcelhaney)

2008-09-30T11:39:00.000-07:00

MMcelhaney has responded to some of the things written on this site in his blogsite at:

http://mmcelhaney.blogspot.com/2008/09/bible-basics-trinity-part-2-redux.html

In this post, I will address what he stated concerning the post on this site at:

http://notrinity.blogspot.com/2008/08/john-112-word-was-mighty.html

MMcelhaney states that I said that TON THEON and THEOS in John 1:1,2 are two different words. I never said that they are two different words, but, at least as far as spelling, they are two different words. However, I did not address them as two different words, since THEON is usually considered but a form of THEOS and therefore thought of as the same word. What I addressed was the fact that TON THEON applied to the God of Jesus does not carry the same meaning or application as THEOS applied to the Word of God. Even most trinitarians will admit there is a difference, else they would have Jesus as his own Father whom he was with.

Trinitarians, however, have to add to and read into what John said the thought that TON THEON refers to their alleged first person of the trinity, while "the Logos was theos," refers to their alleged second person of the trinity, and thus have it read, in effect, "In the beginning was the second person of the trinity, and the second person of the trinity was with the first person of the trinity, and the second person of the trinity was with the qualities of first person of the trinity. In other words, they do not wish it to be thought of as "the second person of the trinity was the first person of the trinity." Thus, some argue that THEOS applied to Logos is a qualitative usage, and from that they would like for it to be understood that THEOS applied to the trinity means that Jesus had all the qualities of the TON THEON whom he was with. (Well, not quite all, they would deny that Jesus is the Father of Jesus, thus they would claim that THEOS would mean all the qualities that would make one God, which, they evidently assume, would not include the quality of being "God the Father". ) In effect, however, this ends up being a circular arugment for the trinity, saying, since we believe that THEOS applied to the LOGOS means that the LOGOS "was" all of the qualities of TON THEON whom he was with, which we believe because we believe that Jesus was God Almighty, then because of this, John 1:1,2 proves that Jesus is God Almighty.

The quality of being THEOS, as far as the Biblical tradition, is that of special power, strength, might. This is the basic meaning of the Hebrew word "EL," and all its forms, which is why its being used of another than Yahweh does not mean that such usage is denoting Yahweh. Only as applied to Yahweh, however, does take on the meaning of the Supreme Might, the Supreme Being. Jesus definitely excludes himself from being the only true God (Supreme Being) whom he was with, thus any application of THEOS to Jesus would have to be in the general sense of the quality of being mighty, or of being a mighty one.

It is claimed that the scriptures cited wherein the words for "God" are rendered in the KJV by words such as mighty, strong, etc. -- (Geenesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding) -- cannot be applied to Jesus because "no man other than Jesus has ever had the divine name applied to Himself of claimed for by Him." In reality, no where in the Bible does Jesus claim the name of his God and Father, nor does anyone else claim the name of Jesus' God and Father for Jesus. It is only as man reads such an idea into the scriptures that such a claim be made, which, in reality is the claim of uninspired men, not of Jesus, nor of any Bible writer. Since it is something has to be assumed and read into the scriptures, then this likewise is a circular argument.

John 8:58 is often cited as proof that Jesus claimed the holy name for himself, but in reality there is nothing there about a name at all. The idea has to be added to, and read into, the scripture.
http://godandson.reslight.net/i-am.html
http://reslight.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/i-am-in-john-858/
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=304.0
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=449.0

Laying aside the imaginative suppositions that man would read into the scriptures, I have never found any place in the Bible where the holy name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is applied to anyone other than the God and Father of the Lord Jesus, except perhaps representatively as an angel of Yahweh might speak for, act for, and thus be addressed as though the angel were Yahweh. (Similar to an interpreter in a courtroom.) This does not mean that an angel of Yahweh, who spoke and acted for Yahweh, is Yahweh who sent the angel.* Jesus claimed to have been sent by Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the same as Moses was sent by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob), as well as did all of the Bible writers. Jesus never claimed to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God who sent him. -- Exodus 3:15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 6:1; Matthew 22:32; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; 12:26; Luke 13:35; 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; 3:13,22; 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

*http://godandson.reslight.net/aoy.html

Since, in reality, the holy name of the God and Father of Jesus is never applied to Jesus, and since Jesus is definitely shown in the Bible not to be the only true God that Jesus was with. (John 1:1,2; 17:1,3,5), then the most direct way of applying the meaning of THEOS to the LOGOS is that of might, strength, power, "the Word was mighty," in keeping with the Biblical usage.

This is in harmony with what Jesus said in John 17:3,5, where he was speaks of a glory that he had with the only true God before the world of mankind was made. The glory "was" -- past tense -- his, but he did not have that glory at the time that he prayed the prayer of John 17, else why would he ask for that glory? That glory was a celestial (heavenly) glory. (1 Corinthians 15:40) At the time that Jesus said the words of John 17, he had the glory of the terrestrial, earthly, not the celestial, heavenly. Jesus, being a sinless human being, was crowned with the full glory of a man, a little lower than the angels. (Romans 3:23; Hebrews 2:9) It was this crown of human glory, given to Jesus by God through a special preparation of Jesus' body (Hebrews 10:5), that the writer John wrote of in John 1:14.

See also:
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=168.0
http://godandson.reslight.net/i-am.html
http://reslight.wordpress.com/2007/09/15/i-am-in-john-858/
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=304.0
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=449.0
http://godandson.reslight.net/john-1.html

Ronald R.

Hebrews 13:8

2008-09-22T17:06:00.000-07:00

Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

According to some, this scripture proves that Jesus always has been, is, and always will be, that he has never changed from all eternity past, and never will change for eternity future. Usually, this scripture is presented in connection with Malachi 3:6, where Yahweh states: "For I [am] Jehovah, I have not changed, And ye, the sons of Jacob, Ye have not been consumed." (Young's Literal Translation) Yahweh declares that, although for a time Israel is left in fiery trials, yet he has not changed his mind concerning Israel so that Israel should be consumed by those fiery trials, but rather, as Paul says, "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:29) Thus Paul wrote: "and so all Israel will be saved. Even as it is written, "There will come out of Zion the Deliverer, And he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. This is my covenant to them, When I will take away their sins." -- Romans 11:26,27.

Of course, Hebrews 13:8 is speaking of Jesus, not Yahweh. Yes, by means of his faithfulness to Yahweh has indeed proven himself the same yesterday, today, and forever. Jesus never disobeyed his God and Father, and has proven through all of his sufferings that he is incorruptible. It by his obedience that brought life and incorruption to light. (2 Timothy 1:10)

The writer to the Hebrews, in context, writes about imitating the faith of those who take the lead amongst the believers, and he warns against being carried away with false teachings. In between this he states "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever." Evidently this has some connection to the context. The writer did not just suddenly change the subject so to announce, as some would have it, that Jesus exists, always existed and will always exist.

In actuality, "yesterday" does not mean all eternity past, nor did the writer say anything about Jesus never having a beginning. This idea has to be added to, and read into, what was stated.

As regarding an example of a leader and a faith to imitate, however, Jesus never wavered in his faithfulness to his God and Father. Jesus' faithfulness was mentioned earlier in Hebrews 2:17 and 3:2.

Nor does Hebrews 13:8 say anything about Jesus' always have been the same "substance," as some seem to read into the words. There is certainly absolutely nothing in the words that says that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, He who is from everlasting to everlasting. Such ideas have to assumed outside of what the scripture actually says and then added to and read into the scripture.

Revelation 22:16

2008-09-20T12:27:00.000-07:00

I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify these things to you for the assemblies. I am the root and the offspring of David; the Bright and Morning Star. -- Revelation 22:16.

How could Jesus be both the root and offspring of David? The claim is made that in order to be the root of David, Jesus had to exist before David, and thus that he was the eternal God, who had no beginning.

Rather than using our imagination and thus reading into the scripture something it does not say, we should examine the scriptures as whole related to this scripture to bring it into harmony with what has been revealed by God through his holy spirit.

We can easily understand how Jesus is the offspring of David. He became the son of the man, David, through his being born from the womb of Mary. (Matthew 1:1; 9:6,27; Luke 1:27; Galatians 4:4) But how is the "root" of David? We read, ""To this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living." (Romans 14:9) Jesus has been made both "Christ" and "Lord" by Yahweh. (Acts 2:36) He has become the "life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45) As such, he becomes the "last Adam" to the human race, that is, he becomes the father, replacing the first Adam, of those who are being regenerated. (Matthew 19:28; John 5:28,29; 6:39,40,44,54; 11:24; 12:47,48; Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 2 Timothy 4:1; Revelation 20:4,6,12,13) Of course, David will be amongst those to receive this regeneration, and thus Jesus, as the life-giver in this regeneration, becomes the "root" of David.

However, the scriptures also state that it was through Jesus that the world was made, that is, the world into which Jesus came and which did not recognize him. (John 1:10) Since Yahweh made this world through Jesus, Jesus could also be said to have been the root of David in this sense. However, as such, that which sprouted from Adam became corrupted through lust (1 Peter 1:4) , "sons of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2; 5:6), "children of wrath," (Ephesians 2:3), and thus such would not be the true "root" that would describe Jesus as the "last Adam." Only as the "last Adam" could Jesus be the root that brings life to David and all the house of David that was under the condemnation in Adam. Nevertheless, Jesus' existence with his God and Father before the world was made (John 17:5), does not mean that Jesus existed from all eternity past. It only means that he, as the firstborn creature, was at some point in time brought forth into being before the rest of the living creation. -- Colossians 1:15,16.

http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=94.0
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=108.0

John 1:1,2 - The Word was Mighty

2008-08-23T13:15:00.000-07:00

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [TON THEON], and the Word was God [THEOS]. The same was in the beginning with God [TON THEON]. -- John 1:1,2, World English - transliterations from the Westcott & Hort Interlinear.

Obviously, John is not, by using the Greek word THEOS as applied to the Word, saying that the Word was TON THEON whom the Word was with. One is not "with" an individual, and at the same time that individual whom he was with. What the trinitarian has to do in order to force the trinitarian dogma into John's statement is to assume that TON THEON refers to the alleged "first person of God," that is, God the Father, and that THEOS applied to the Word refers to their alleged second person of God, God the Son. John does not speak of the holy spirit, so they have to assume and add the holy spirit.

I have no doubt that TON THEON refers to the God and Father of Jesus, for Jesus identifies who he was with (John 17:5), and Jesus also lets us know that his God and Father is the only true God. (John 17:3) This we can verify by comparing spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment.

The trinitarian claims that since Jesus is called THEOS (god) in John 1:1, and since there is only one true God, then Jesus has to be that only true God, or else he has to be a false god. This disregards the Hebraic tradition that allows the usage of the words for "God" in a more general sense of might, power, authority, etc. Thus, according to their line of reasoning, if Jesus is "god", then he is either the one true God, or else a false god.

However, even most Bible language scholars who believe in the trinity do recognize a usage of the words for God in the general sense of might, power, etc. Even the translators of the King James Version recognized such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL and ELOHIM in the Hebrew) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). If one were to substitute "false god" in these verses, we would have some absurd statements. This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god."

In Psalm 82:1, as noted above, the KJV renders one of the words for "God" as "mighty." Jesus quotes from part of this Psalm -- Psalm 82:6,7 -- in John 10:34,35, rendering the Hebrew word ELOHIM by the Greek words "THEOI," a plural form of THEOS, which word is used of the Logos in John 1:1. Jesus was not saying that the sons of God to whom the Word came are false gods, but he is using the word in sense of authority. The sons of God to whom the Word (the Logos) came were indeed given power, authority, to become sons of God. (John 1:12) With this authority, they can thus rightly be called ELOHIM, THEOI. They are not "false gods," but they are given their authority from God through Jesus.
For more concerning Psalm 82:6,7, see:
http://godandson.reslight.net/you-are-gods.html

Likewise, Jesus, being the firstborn son of God (Colossians 1:15), can also be called THEOS. Thus, the suggested rendering of John 1:1 in reference to the Word is "The Word was mighty."

For more concerning John 1:1,2, see:
John 1:1 and the Trinitarian
James White and "een" in John 1:1
John 1:1 and THEOS
The Logos as THEOS
In the Beginning
John 1:1 and the Logos of God

Response to

Bible Basics Trinity - Part 2 Redux

It is being claimed that we stated that Jesus in John 1:1,2 is not being called God, but mighty. This is not exactly what we say, and is deceptive. What we say is that the application of the Greek word for "God" as applied to the Logos in John 1:1,2 is a Hebraism which, in English, should be understood as meaning "mighty". John was a Hebrew and certainly would have knowledge of such Hebraic usage. Indeed, since John emphasizes the second time that Jesus was with TON THEON, (the God), the default reasoning would be that Jesus was not TON THEON whom he was with, and thus, that the application of THEOS to Jesus is not as the only true God whom he declared himself to be with (John 17:1,3,5), but rather that John was assigning to the Jesus the glory of might that "was" [past tense] while he was with his God and Father before the world of mankind had been made through him (John 1:10), and which glory Jesus did not possess while he was in the days of his flesh. -- Hebrews 5:7. Indeed, in view of the context and the rest of the Bible, the default reasoning should be to imagine and assume that John was saying that Jesus "was" his God, but rather the default reasoning should be to apply that which God has revealed by means of his Holy Spirit, as has been done above, to see in what manner the word THEOS should be understood as applied to the Logos.

See:
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”

Indeed, one has to call heavily upon the spirit of human imagination in order to "see" the trinity dogma in what John wrote in John 1:1,2. This has been discussed at:

John 1:1 and Trinity Assumptions

It is being claimed that the Hebraic application of "mighty" does not apply to Jesus since it is being further claimed that "no man other than Jesus has ever had the divine name applied to Himself of claimed for by Him." The first claim is dependent on the second claim that Jesus applied God's Holy Name to himself, and that others applied God's Holy Name to Jesus. Both claims we deny. It is only by the addition of human imagination that any scripture can be thought to be applying God's Holy Name to God's Son in any manner that would mean that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who sent Jesus. (Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews1:1,2) God's name, however, is called upon all who are in covenant relationship with Him (2 Chronicles 7:14; Isaiah 43:7; 65:1; Jeremiah 7:10,11,13,40; 25:9; 32:34; 34:15; Amos 9:12; Acts 15:14), and Jesus declared that his God has a made a covenant with him. (Luke 22:29, Rotherham)

Jesus, of course, being sent by Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, did speak for, and act in behalf of, his God, in a way that no other human has ever done, although many prophets and judges did the similar in the Old Testament times. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh as his unipersonal God and Father, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; 12:26; Luke 13:35; 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; 3:13-26; 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

The scriptures abound with cases where Yahweh uses various servants but is given the credit for their actions, since he was the directing force, very similar to Jesus. — Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6; etc.

For discussions of scriptures for which it is often claimed that God's Holy Name is attributed to Jesus, see:

The Holy Name
The Holy Name Page 2

See also:

Focus on the Holy Name

Directly, God's Holy Name is only applied to the unipersonal God and Father of Jesus.

See:
The God (Supreme Being – The Might) of Jesus (Scriptures)

The Father is the Only True God

2008-08-22T16:59:00.000-07:00

Many of our neighbors who believe in the trinity doctrine, the oneness doctrine, or similar doctrines, will tell you that the scriptures say that there is only one God, and since the words for "God" are applied also to Jesus, then Jesus is that one God. Such actually disregards the usage of the words that are usually translated as God, and, if taken to its logical conclusion, would have Moses (Exodus 7:1), the judges of Israel (Exodus 21:6; 22:8,9,28; See Acts 23:5), all the angels (Psalm 8:5 compared with Hebrews 2:7), the sons of God to whom the Logos came (Psalm 82:1,6; John 10:34,35), the rulers of Babylon (Ezekiel 32:21), and many others, as well as some "things," all as being the one true God.

It is difficult to say that only the God and Father of Jesus is "god," since the words that are translated as "god" can take on the sense of general mightiness. We can definitely say that we are told in the Bible by Jesus himself that the God and Father of Jesus -- the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who sent Jesus, is the only true God in the sense of Supreme Might, the Supreme Being. -- John 17:3; see also 1 Corinthians 8:6.

The Hebrew word for "God" is "EL" and various forms of this word, and the Greek word is "THEOS," and various forms of this word.

Others -- even things -- in the Bible, including the one sent by the only true God, may have the forms of the words EL and THEOS applied to them in a secondary general sense, in the sense of the basic meaning of mightiness, power, and/or authority as given to them by the only true MIGHT of the universe, but this kind of application of the words in a more general sense of mightiness does mean the only true God. Only when applied to the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Jesus do the words take on the sense of THE MIGHT, the Supreme Being.

Many translations have recognized this usage, but it is not readily apparent to most readers of these translations. For instance, when considering the Hebrew word *EL*, which is most often rendered "God", the King James translators recognize the usage of this word in its basic meaning many times. Carefully note the following texts from the King James Version, in which English translations of the Hebrew word El (and its variations) are in denoted by *..*: "It is in the *power* of my hand." (Genesis 31:29) "There shall be no *might* in thine hand." (Deuteronomy 28:32) "Neither is it in our *power*." (Nehemiah 5:5) "Like the *great* mountains." (Psalm 36:6) "In the *power* of thine hand to do it." (Proverbs 3:27) "Who among the sons of the *mighty*." (Psalm 89:6) "God standeth in the congregation of the *mighty*." (Psalm 82:1) "Who is like unto thee, O Lord [Yahweh] among the *Gods* [mighty ones or ruling ones]?" (Exodus 15:11) "Give unto the Lord [Yahweh] of ye *mighty*." (Psalm 29:1) "The *mighty* God even the Lord [Yahweh]." (Psalm 50:1) "The *strong* among the mighty shall speak." (Ezekiel 32:21) In none of these verses would anyone think of putting forth the challenge of whether the word EL is in reference to the only true God or to a false god.

In the above sense, in the sense of the might, power, authority, rulership, etc., that Yahweh gives to Jesus, we can say that Jesus is god (mighty, powerful, strong, ruler, etc.), but he is not the only true God, the Supreme Being of the Universe. The Supreme Being does not have one who is Supreme Being over him. Jesus does have one who "God," the Supreme Being over him.

Likewise, the Hebrew word "elohim" can mean "mighty" or "great" as can be seen by the way the KJV translators have rendered it in various verses. Again, the word(s) that are used to express the Hebrew word "elohim" are denoted by **: "a *mighty* prince" (Genesis 23:6) "And Rachel said, With *great* wrestlings have I wrestled with my sister, and I have prevailed: and she called his name Naphtali." (Genesis 30:8) "It was a very great trembling." (1 Samuel 14:15) "Now Nineveh was an exceeding *great* city of three days' journey." -- Jonah 3:3.

One can verify these usages in most Lexicons, Strong's Concordance, or by using the KJV with Strong's numbers at biblecrosswalk.com or studylight.org.

ELOHIM, when used in a singular setting, takes on the sense of superiority or the superlative, often called the plural intensive usage of a word. However, forms of the word ELOHIM can also designate a plural usage in a plural setting. Such a case is in Psalm 82:1,6. The King James Version renders ELOHIM in Psalm 82:1 in the first instance as "God," but in the second instance as "gods". The KJV renders the Hebrew word EL in Psalm 82:1 as "mighty." Jesus refers to Psalm 82:6 in his defense concerning his being called the son of God, and the Greek text in John 10:34,35 renders ELOHIM into the Greek as THEOI (plural form of THEOS). The "sons of God" to whom the Logos came are referred to as ELOHIM, THEOS. Should we think of this in terms of being "false gods" or the "true God?" I don't think so, else Jesus' statement would have been meaningless, and his appeal to what God's Word stated would have been of no help to him. Jesus was showing the scriptural legitimacy for using the word involved to others than the only true God, Yahweh, in a sense other than meaning the Most High, Supreme Being, and thus, that his claim to be "the son of God" certainly did not break any of the rules of the scriptural usage.

Thus, in John 1:1,2, John, by twice stating that the Logos in his prehuman existence was with God, is definitely not stating that the Logos was the only true God whom the Logos was with. The words of Jesus in John 17:3,5 show that Jesus was with the only true God -- he was not that only true God whom he was with. Therefore, THEOS in John 1:1, as applied to the Logos should be viewed with the general Hebraic meaning of "mighty," "the Logos was mighty."

We therefore conclude that in the very few instances in the Bible where the words THEOS, EL, or ELOHIM are applied to Jesus, that it is in this general sense of might, power, etc., not in the sense as the only true God versus false gods. Such usage does not give us reason to think that Jesus is the only true God who sent Jesus.

1 Timothy 3:16 - God in the Flesh?

2008-08-20T07:50:00.000-07:00

1 Timothy 3:16

There is nothing here about a trinity, or anything about three persons. One has to assume such an idea and then read that idea into what is said. Evidently one has to assume that "God," as it reads in the KJV and many other translations, means the second person of the trinity; it is further assumed and read into the statement that "God" therefore means that Jesus was "God in the flesh," or something of this nature.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. -- American Standard.

Nothing in this rendering says that Jesus "is" God in the flesh. Paul is talking about the mystery of godliness (piety), devotion to God. This great mystery is described in the phrases following. While this godly devotion is a great mystery to world, it is revealed in the human life, resurrection and ascension of Jesus. As it reads in the American Standard, and several other translations, this mystery of godliness is "he who" was revealed, manifested, or appeared in the flesh (of Jesus). Jesus was indeed the exemplar of this godliness, this devotion to God, especially since he was the first human to have completely and fully obeyed God.

1 Timothy 3:16 - Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. -- New International Version.

This version speaks of Jesus as appearing in a body. It still, however, does not say that Jesus *is* God in the flesh. Of course, Jesus, having a body specially prepared by God (Hebrews 10:5), and thus not being condemned to sin and death as are all who are dying in Adam (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22), and having learned of his God and Father, and with the help of God's holy spirit, Jesus was indeed the exemplar of godliness (devotion to God). This, of course, does not mean that Jesus is his God to whom he held this godliness.

1 Timothy 2:15 - Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ appeared in the flesh and was shown to be righteous by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and was announced to the nations. He was believed on in the world and was taken up into heaven. -- New Living Translation.

This rendering also does not say that Jesus *is* God in the flesh. While this rendering is not very literal in translation, the thought is given that Christ appeared in the flesh. The "great mystery of godliness" is changed to "the great mystery our faith." Jesus was shown to be righteous (he absolutely never sinned!). What an example of godliness (devotion to God). Of course, nothing here means that Jesus is his God, or that he was his God Himself in the flesh.

1 Timothy 3:16 - Truly great is this divine mystery of righteousness: it is revealed in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and received up into glory. -- Lamsa Translation.

This translation also does not say that "Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. This rendering would place the "mystery of godliness" as an "it" that is revealed in the flesh. Of course, the way that righteousness was revealed in the flesh was by means of Jesus. It was Jesus, by means of righteousness, his devotedness to his God, who brought life and incorruption to light.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. -- King James Version.

Again, we do not find any expression that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh, but this translation does say that "God was manifest in the flesh." Of course, through Jesus, God was indeed made manifest in the flesh of the one sent by the only true God, since Jesus declared his God, spoke the words of his God, and did the works of his God who had sent him. (Deuteronomy 18:15-19; John 14:10,24; 17:3) This does not mean that Jesus is his God. "The mystery of godliness" -- of devotion to God -- would be the entire expression following. This godliness was that God was indeed made manifest, revealed, in the flesh of Jesus. This godliness in Jesus was justified by means of the spirit, seen of angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world and received up into glory. Jesus' godliness, his devotion to God, was with him while he was in the flesh, and remains with him after being received up into glory. Jesus, of course, since his flesh was never sinful to begin with, did not need to be justified from sin, but Jesus did maintain the justified condition by means of God's holy spirit -- never failling short of the glory of God, unlike Adam, and all condemned in Adam. The angels themselves had a keen interest in Jesus' devotion to God, which is still a "mystery" to the world. The devotion of Jesus to his God was preached to the heathen, and many in the world did believe in him. Jesus continued this devotion even after having died in the flesh, sacrificing his terrestrial body and received into the glory of a celestial body.

Of course, the reason for different words used in translation is because of the variant readings of manuscripts. I do not wish to get into a fruitless, and often endless, argument of which variant is correct. As shown above, regardless of the differences in the manuscripts, none of them say that Jesus is God manifested in the flesh. Trinitarians, as well as some others, prefer the way it reads in the KJV since they would find it easier to add their doctrines to this, and read their doctrines into what is said. The best rendering that I can see that actually fits the context is "he who" rendering. From the standpoint of complete harmony with the rest of the scriptures, what I can say about the latter (KJV) translation of 1 Timothy 3:16 is that God was manifested in the flesh of Jesus, since Jesus was fully devoted to God, the human expression of godliness (piety) while Jesus was in the days of his flesh. This does not mean that Jesus was or is his God, who was being manifested through Jesus.

For further study, see:
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=86.msg145
http://godandson.reslight.net/1tim3-16.html

The Singular Name in Isaiah 9:6

2008-07-16T07:12:00.001-07:00

For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God [Hebrew transliteration: EL GIBBOR], Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. -- Isaiah 9:6, Young's Literal Translation.

As given in Young's translation, it shows that the titles are anarthrous, without the definite article "the" before each title. Of course, the capitalization of these "titles" are also added be the translators.

What does the trinitarian need to assume concerning Isaiah 9:6? First, it appears that he would assume that "name" (singular) really means "names" (plural) or titles (plural). Then he has to assume that EL GIBBOR is a singular name/title applied to Jesus. Then he has to assume that EL GIBBOR, as applied to Jesus, means that Jesus is Yahweh.

It is Yahweh, however, who is giving the son to Israel, and it is also Yahweh who is giving this "name" to the son, as can be seen in Isaiah 9:7, "The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this."

If EL GIBBOR should be understood as being a title of Jesus in this verse, the context should let us know that the expression "el gibbor" would not signify Yahweh. Therefore, we should determine the meaning el gibbor as it would apply to the one given by Yahweh, and not automatically assume that it means that Jesus is Yahweh. In keeping with the context, then it should be understood as the term is used in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. I do not know of any translation that renders the expression in Ezekiel 32:21 as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually rendered similar to the King James Version, which renders it as "The strong among the mighty." Thus, in Isaiah 9:6, if this expression as "mighty god" is assumed to be a title for the Messiah, the anointed of Yahweh, who is therefore not Yahweh, then it should also be understood as in Ezekiel 32:21, "a strong one among the mighty."

Likewise, if the title "everlasting father," is to be understood as being applied to the Messiah, it should be understood in light of what Messiah became after his resurrection, the "last Adam," who "became the life-giving spirit," who, in effect, is takes Adam's place as the life-giver to the world. Unlike Adam, who disobeyed and became father only to a dying race (1 Corinthians 15:21,22), Jesus becomes father forever, thus "everlasting father."

However, the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 depicts a singular name by which the son who is given shall be called. The name given is given by Yahweh. The name, being singular, does not depict a series of names or titles as is given by most translations of this verse. That singular name is usually transliterated as Pelejoezelgibborabiaadarshalom. Often such a "name" given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and the application of such a name to a human or thing does not designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. Thus, for instance, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel, which could be read as a series of titles: God, The God, Israel, we realize that this is not what Jacob meant by this. Rather, we understand that he was not saying that the altar was "God," or that the altar was "the God," nor that the altar was Israel, but rather that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob's (Israel's) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: "God is the God of Israel," or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: "Powerful is the God of Israel." Likewise in Isaiah 9:6, since it is directly stated in the singular as a name, not plural, as "names", we believe it more correctly to be understood as describing Yahweh, not the Messiah who comes in the name of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the God and Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

Nevertheless, as shown above, even if Isaiah 9:6 should be viewed as a series of titles describing the Messiah himself, it still does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh who sent Jesus. There is definitely nothing in the verse about three persons in one God or any kind of concept as expressed in the trinity dogma, except that one add that dogma to, and read that dogma into, what is stated in Isaiah 9:6.

He Existed in the Form of God - Philippians 2:5-11

2008-07-12T14:24:00.000-07:00

Philippians 2:5
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Philippians 2:6
who, although He existed in the form [external appearance] of God ["God" referring to the God and Father of Jesus -- as in Philippians 1:2,3;8,11,14,28; 2:9,11,13,15,27; 3:3,9,14,15 -- in the spirit realm, being the firstborn creature (Colossians 1:15), Jesus, before he became Jesus, appeared to the angels as though he was his God, but he was not actually God], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped [as did the one spoken of in Isaiah 14:14],
Philippians 2:7
but emptied Himself, taking the form [external appearance] of a bond-servant [as though in bondage to sin and corruption; to the world he had the external appearance of being a sinner as the rest of mankind since he suffered as though he were a bond-servant to sin, although he was not actually in such a bondage], and being made in the likeness of men [likeness of sinful flesh; suffering for sin -- Romans 8:3].
Philippians 2:8
Being found in appearance as a man [appearing as though he was were a man under the condemnation through Adam], He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death [death being the wages of sin; however, Jesus was not a sinner, and did not merit death, but suffered for sin to the point of death, in order to take pay the price for sin that is upon mankind through Adam], even death on a cross [as though he were a criminal, although he was not actually a criminal].
Philippians 2:9
For this reason also, God [the True One who sent Jesus -- John 7:28; 17:3] highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name [as an office or title] which is above every name,
Philippians 2:10
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW ["to God through Jesus Christ" -- 1 Peter 2:5; "that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ." -- 2 Peter 4:11], of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Philippians 2:11
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord [having been made so by Yahweh, the only true God who sent Jesus -- Isaiah 61:1; John 17:3; Acts 2:36], to the glory of [Yahweh -- Isaiah 40:5] God the Father ["through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God." -- Philippians 1:11].

What one does not see in these verses is any reference to Jesus as a the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, that is, Yahweh who sent Jesus.

For more information, see:
http://godandson.reslight.net/phil2-5.html
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?topic=113.0

__________________
Praise Yahweh! Give thanks to Yahweh, for he is good, For his lovingkindness endures forever. (Psalm 106:1, World English Bible translation) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ. (Ephesians 1:30, King James Version)

What is the Trinity?

2008-07-06T09:17:00.000-07:00

If we ask a trinitarian "What is the trinity?", we might not receive the same answer from each individual who professes belief in the trinity. According to the CARM site, the trinity is defined as meaning "God is three persons;" "Each person is divine;" and "There is only one God." One of the WIKI articles favorable to the trinity doctrine claims:

The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons:[1] the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. Since the beginning of the third century[2] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "that the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit".[3] Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism; and the Trinity has been described as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[3]

From this, however, the trinitarian has to give the terminology used unique meanings as applied to the trinitarian dogma.

It is claimed that although the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible, that the concept of the trinity does appear there. And yet, in all of the array of scriptures that the trinitarian presents to allegedly support that concept, the concept of the trinity -- three persons in one God -- has to be added to and read into each and all the scriptures presented to allegedly support that concept. The concept of the trinity itself is no where presented in the Bible, without the scriptures being filtered by the tint of the trinitarian dogma being laid over the scriptures in order that the concept be given the appearance as being in the scriptures presented. This will become apparent as the scriptures are examined.

Some trinitarians may admit that the scriptures do not directly state that there are three persons in one God, but that by taking all of the scriptures together, one is justified in adding that concept to the scriptures. Some may claim that one has read the scriptures in the tint of the trinitarian dogma, or else the scriptures are contradictory. Again, in reality, the scriptures can be seen to be in perfect harmony without adding to the scriptures a story of three persons in one God.

Many, however, do not realize that in detail, there are varying opinions concerning the trinity amongst the leaders to who teach that doctrine. One of the most known differences is that some believe in the "functional subordination" of their "God the Son" to God the Father; others do not believe in that subordination. (This, Yahweh willing, will be dealt with later, as a separate topic.) Additionally, there is a dispute amongst trinitarians regarding practically every scripture that is presented to support that doctrine. Usually, however, those trinitarian scholars who may claim that a certain scripture cannot be used to support the dogma are ignored by the larger body of trinitarian scholars. For instance, some trinitarians see "trinity" in the Hebrew words ELOHIM and ECHAD, while others do not. (Yahweh willing, these matters will be discussed in later posts.)

We might add that the vast spectrum of Christians of all denominations, when asked what they believe the trinity is, may give an answer something like: "belief in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." These do not usually think in the theological terms in defining "trinity" as "three persons in God," etc. Indeed, all Christians should believe in "the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit", whether they believe in the trinity dogma or not, and if "trinity" should be stated in such terms, without adding all of the other trinitarian philosophy, we too can say that we believe in such a trinity, that is, we believe in "the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit."

God willing, we later examine the incomprehensibility of the trinity, the claims of both non-trinitarians as well as trinitarians as respects this incomprehensibility, as related to what is actually revealed in the Bible.

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Visit our Sites:
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http://notrinity.blogspot.com/

Is the Trinity a Biblical Doctrine?

2008-06-30T08:16:00.000-07:00

According to many trinitarians, "the trinity is a Biblical doctrine," and the trinity dogma is presented as allegedly stating what the Bible says. In reality, there is absolutely no concept of a trinity presented anywhere at all in the Bible. The idea has to be added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to allegedly support the added-on dogma.

Yes, the trinitarians present an array of scriptures, both from the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the Christian Scriptures to allegedly support their dogma. Upon close examination, however, one has to realize that in each and every scripture that is presented, what the trinitarian relies on is a dull mind that will see "trinity" when the scriptures are read. Closer examination of the scriptures reveal how the trinity has to be added to and read into each and every scripture presented.

The truth is that the scriptures can be seen to be totally and fully harmonious without adding the trinitarian philosophy to the Bible.

"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed".

Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral,
"God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180

My belief in the Trinity is based on the authority of the Church: no other authority is sufficient. I will now show from reason, that the Athanasian Creed and the Scripture are opposed to one another.

The doctrine of the Trinity is this:

-- There is one God in three persons; Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. The Father is God, the Son is God: and the Holy Ghost is God. Mind, the Father is one person, the Son is another person, and the Holy Ghost is another person. Now, according to every principle of mathematics, arithmetic, human wisdom, and policy, there must be three Gods; for no one could say that there are three persons and three Gods, and yet only one God. . . .

The Athanasian Creed gives the universal opinion of the Church, that the Father is uncreated, the Son uncreated: and the Holy Ghost uncreated -- that they existed from all eternity. Now, the Son was born of the Father; and, if born, must have been created. The Holy Ghost must also have been created, as he came from the Father and the Son. And, if so, there must have been a time when they did not exist.

If they did not exist, they must have been created; and therefore to assert that they are eternal is absurd, and bangs nonsense. Each has his distinct personality: each has his own essence. How, then, can they be one Eternal? How can they all be God? Absurd.

The Athanasian Creed says, that they are three persons, and still only one God. Absurd; extravagant! This is rejected by Arians, Socinians, Presbyterians, and every man following human reason. The Creed further says, that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God and of man, 'not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God.' Now, I ask you, Did the Divinity absorb the manhood? He could not be at the same time one person and two persons. I have now proved the Trinity opposed to human reason.

"Rev." James Hughes, Roman Catholic Priest,
As quoted in Percy White's The Doctrine of the Trinity (1913.)

In other words, this Roman Catholic Priest is saying that he believe in the trinity, not because he can find in the Bible, but because he accepts as authority the word of men who claim such authority.

Some other sites online that examine the false trinity doctrine:
http://godandson.reslight.net
http://clearblogs.com/jesusandhisgod/
http://groups.google.com/group/jesus-and-his-god
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php?board=6.0
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/