Is Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

This is in response to a site that claims that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament; since we have discussed most of the scriptures individually elsewhere,  for most scriptures we are simply providing links to the discussion.

Unless stated otherwise, the World English version of the Bible is used throughout, with forms of the holy name supplied at appropriate places.

We first wish to state that there is not one scripture in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that says that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One has to imagine, assume, add to and read that thought into, any scripture that is presented to allegedly "prove" that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No where is the glory that only belongs to the Most High ever attributed to the son of the Most High. -- Isaiah 42:8; Luke 1:32.

The God of the Old Testament identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He identified Himself by the name EHYEH (often rendered as "I am")/Yahweh (Jehovah).

Exodus 3:6 - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Exodus 3:13 - Moses said to God, "Behold, when I come to the children of Israel, and tell them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you;' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' What should I tell them?"
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "[EHYEH ASHER EHYEH]," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: "[EHYEH] has sent me to you."
Exodus 3:15 God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'YAHWEH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.

EHYEH and YAHWEH are two different forms of the one holy name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Bible nevers speaks of more than one holy name of God.

See:
Jesus is Not Yahweh (Jehovah)

The Unipersonal God of Jesus

Jesus called the God of the Old Testament, "My God." In doing so, he speaks of the God of the Old Testament as one person, not three persons.

Matthew 27:46 -- About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" That is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Mark 15:34 -- At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is, being interpreted, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

John 20:17 -- Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"

Revelation 3:12 -- He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.

In foretelling the Messiah sent by Yahweh, Micah 5:4 refers to Yahweh as "his God."

Micah 5:4 - He shall stand, and shall shepherd in the strength of Yahweh, In the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God: And they will live, for then he will be great to the ends of the earth.

In speaking to the Son of the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to as "your God."

Psalms 45:7 -- You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.

Hebrews 1:8,9 -- of the Son he says... You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=367

Hebrews 1:1,2 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, and says that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob speaks to us through His son.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=772

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to in the New Testament unipersonally as the God and Father of Jesus. -- Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 2 Peter 1:3.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=263

Acts 3:13-26 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a unipersonal God, who has raised Jesus up as the prophet like Moses (as foretold in Deuteronomy 18:15-19), and who has raised Jesus up from death.

Revelation 1:1,4,5 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person (not three), who gave the Revelation to Jesus (another person who is not God who gave the Revelation to him.)

Revelation 1:8 quotes the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus (Revelation 1:1,2), the one whom Jesus refers to unipersonally as "my God" in Revelation 3:12.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=66

In many translations, in Revelation 1:6 "God" -- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who speaks through his Son, is referred to unipersonally as the God of Jesus.

He made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. -- Revelation 1:6

It is the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus and who is being quoted in Revelation 1:8.

Revelation 1:17,18 and Revelation 2:8 speaks of Jesus as the first and the last firstborn of the dead. "First and Last" certainly does not mean the Most High, not unless you believe the Most was dead, and needed to made alive.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=911

Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13 both refer to the unipersonal God spoken of in Revelation 1:1,2.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=325

Matthew 28:18 shows that Jesus is not the Almighty, since the power spoken of given to him; the Almighty does not need anyone to give to him power, since he already is the source of all might in the universe. If Jesus as some point was given the power of being the Almighty, this would also mean that at some time Jesus was not the Almighty. Additionally, Paul states that it is evident that the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
See our study on "All Power."

Likewise, in John 17:2, Jesus does not claim this authority as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but this authority is given to him by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. John 17:1,3 shows that Jesus believed that his Father is unipersonally "the only true God." Nor does the authority given by the only true God to Jesus mean that Jesus, by receiving this authority from only true God became the only true God due to having receiving this authority; this would mean that before Jesus was not the only true God until he received the authority from the only true God; of course, in reality none of this means at all that the authority that Jesus received from the only true God means that Jesus is the Most High, the Almighty, or the only true God.

In Acts 10:36, the one being referred to as the "Lord of all" probably is "God" who is being spoken of as doing these things by means of Jesus the Anointed One. (Acts 2:34-36) "God" is being used unipersonally of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as can be seen by Acts 10:38, where it says "God anotinted him [Jesus] with the Holy Spirit and with power." Isaiah 61:1 has the Anointed One saying: "Yahweh has anointed me." Acts 2:36 speaks of this God unipersonally saying "God made him [Jesus] both Lord and Christ [Anointed One]." Thus, even if Jesus is spoken of as "Lord of all" in Acts 10:36, Jesus is such because the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made him both Lord and Christ (Anointed One). Again, it is evident that in anointing Jesus, the glory that only belongs to the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.

See our study: "Lord of All"

Ephesians 1:20-22 - See our study "Far Above All Rule, Authority, Power"

In Philippians 2:9, Paul again identifies the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, saying "God also exalted him (Jesus)." "God" here refers to one person; Jesus is not spoken of as the Most High, since Jesus is the one that as being spoken of being exalted by the Most High, and it is evident that Jesus is not being included in "God" who exalted Jesus. Thus, rather than claiming that Jesus is the Almighty Yahweh, Paul shows that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Likewise, the Most High does not need another to give him a name, an office, as the Most High, for he, by nature of his being the Most High, is the Most High innate. On the other hand, Jesus is given a name, that is an office, that above every name. Again, it is evident that the name of the Most High is excluded, since it is the Most High is the One who is given this "name" to Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:27) Thus, Philippians 2:9,10 shows that Jesus is not the Most High, the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Philippians 9:11 shows that all homage given to Jesus is is to the glory of the unipersonal God (spoken of in Philippians 2:9), the Father of Jesus.
See our study: "Humility of Mind"

Daniel 7:13,14 - I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

There is absolutely nothing here that indicates that the one "like a son of man" is the Almighty. And like the other scriptures, if what is said here means that Jesus is the Almighty, then it would mean that he was not the Almighty until the dominion was given to him from unknown source who would evidently need to be greater than the Almighty. In reality, since this dominion is given to Jesus by another, then this scripture actually proves that Jesus is not the Almighty.

Neither in the Old Testament or the New Testament do we find anything that reveals Jesus as the God of the Old Testament; that idea does indeed have to imagined beyond what is written, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to allegedly prove that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh).

For study on the following scriptures, links are provided to show that the scriptures presented offer no proof of the trinity, or that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.

Matthew 28:19
The Baptismal Name

2 Corinthians 13:14
The Three Be With You

1 Peter 1:2
See the study: "Peter Presents the Trinity?" -- Click Here to search the RL site for 1 Peter 1:2.

Deuteronomy 32:6
See the study: "Click Here to search the RL site for Deuteronomy 32:6.

Isaiah 63:16
See the study: "You are Our Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 63:16

Isaiah 64:8
See the study: "The Potter, Father of Israel -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 64:8.

Malachi 1:6
See the study: A Son Honors His Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Malachi 1:6.

Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18
See the study: The Spirit of Yahweh on the Anointed One -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 61:1.

2 Corinthians 3:17
See the study: Yahweh, the Spirit


Revelation 1:4 -- Is Jesus called "who is and who was and who is to come?
See the study: Who Is, Was, To Come - Jesus?

Revelation 11:17 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 15:3 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 16:7 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 16:14 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 19:6 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.

Revelation 19:15 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.


Revelation 21:22 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.


Revelation 1:8 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.


Revelation 22:17 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.


Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
See our study: Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last

For an examination of scriptures that are presented from the various books of the Bible, click on the name of the books below (not all links are ready yet; additionally, more scriptures are still being added to the results):

Genesis * Exodus * Deuteronomy * Judges * Psalms * Ecclesiastes  * Isaiah * Jeremiah * Ezekiel * Daniel * Hosea * Micah * Malachi * Matthew * Mark * Luke * John * Acts * Romans * 1 Corinthians * 2 Corinthians * Galatians * Ephesians * Philippians * Colossians * 1 Thessalonians * 2 Thessalonians * 1 Timothy * 2 Timothy * Titus * Philemon * Hebrews * 1 Peter * 2 Peter * 1 John * 2 John * 3 John * Jude * Revelation

Isaiah 9:6 - His Name Is

Isaiah 9:5 - For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; - Jewish Publication Society translation. (This is Isaiah 9:6 in most translations)

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.

Isaiah 9:6 is often referred to as proof that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). In reality, the idea has to be added to and read into what the prophecy states.

As we read it from the Jewish Publication Society's (JPS) rendering, we do not find any designation of Jesus as being "God". The JPS renders it via a transliteration of the "name." Most translations ignore that the verse is speaking a "name" (singular), and change the singular "name" to a series of names, with the evident design to make it appear that Jesus is being referrred to as "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father", so that the idea that Jesus is Yahweh can then be read into this. If one recognizes this, then one can see how this argument is circular, saying, in effect, because we believe that this name is not really a singular name as it says it is, but rather a series of names that are applied to the Messiah, then we believe that since Jesus is called "Mighty God", then Jesus is Yahweh.

In reality, Isaiah 9:7 shows that it is Yahweh who is giving this son to Israel. The Holy Scriptures reveal that Yahweh (Jehovah), the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is also the God of Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; Deuteronomy 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; John 5:30; John 6:38; John 17:1,3; John 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 3:2,12.

Yahweh (Jehovah), by means of his holy spirit, shows us through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures ever present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Mark 12:26; Luke 13:35; Luke 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; John 4:34; John 5:19,30,36,43; John 6:57; John 7:16,28; John 8:26,28,38; John 10:25; John 12:49,50; John 14:10; John 15:15; John 17:8,26; John 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; Acts 3:13,22; Acts 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; Colossians 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

Usually, a singular name given to a person or thing is not given a translated meaning as a series of names, as has been done in Isaiah 9:6. The general trend is that a “name” such as this given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and by giving such a name to a human or thing is not understood to designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. For example, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel (Genesis 33:20), this could also be read as a series of "names", as most do in reading Isaiah 9:5, giving it the meaning: “God, The God, Israel.” Applying the same logic that most apply to Isaiah 9:6, we could then proclaim that this altar is God. In reality, such a "name" is meant to be understood as a sentence speaking of the God of Israel. Therefore, we should realize that he was not saying that the altar was “God,” or that the altar was “the God,” nor that the altar was Israel, but instead that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob’s (Israel’s) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: “God is the God of Israel,” or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: “Powerful is the God of Israel.”

So what about Isaiah 9:6? Likewise, the singular name should be understood as a sentence describing the God of Messiah rather than as a series of names that are applied to the Anointed of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.” From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the only Most High, Yahweh, the Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.

But let us suppose that the phrase "El Gibbor" (Mighty God) is actually applied to Messiah, rather than to One who makes/anoints the Messiah. Would this mean that Jesus is Yahweh his God, the God who anointed and made him the Christ, the Messiah? (Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38; Hebrews 1:9) Absolutely not! First, we should note that this name is not given to the Son of Yahweh until after he has been given by Yahweh to Israel. It has no application to Jesus in a pre-human existence.

In keeping with the rest of the scriptures, the application of the phrase "EL GIBBOR" to Messiah, usually rendered as "Mighty God", would only mean that the Anointed One is given power and might by the only true God. This usage is demonstrated by the King James Version rendering in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The expression "Mighty God" (el gibbor) is applicable to Jesus in a similar, but greater sense, as it was applicable to the Babylonish kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. In that verse, the phrase is not translated as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually translated as something like, "The strong among the mighty." (King James Version) Applying a similar rendering to Isaiah 9:6 would give us "strong one among the mighty", or, if it is to be rendered as a separate title, "mighty one of power." Jesus is indeed a mighty one of power, having been given all the plenitude of might bodily that he needs to carry out the purposes of his God and Father. (Colossians 2:9,10) Jesus, since his resurrection, has also become the "everlasting father," "the life-giving spirit," since it is through, by means of, him that the human race is regenerated / made alive. (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45) Those regenerated in this age are regenerated by tasting of the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5), receiving the holy spirit as an earnest, a down payment of that which is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14) None of this means that Jesus is his God and Father, the only true God who sent Jesus. -- John 17:1,3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3.

See also other places where this scripture is discussed:
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,405.0.html
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/
http://godandson.reslight.net/isaiah9-6.html
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,181.0.html

Written by others (I do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given):

Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"
This is evidently a site written by one associated with the Jehovah's Witnesses organization.

This post is a partial response to:
http://onthisstone.blogspot.com/

CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board

Trinity and Christmas

It is not uncommon to hear trinitarians speak of Christmas as the "birth of God," or even "God's birthday". Of course, Yahweh Himself has never been begotten, conceived, born, or brought into existence, since he has always been in existence. Nor has Yahweh ever been born as a human being, as is often imagined by trinitarians, as well as some others. Thus, the dualistic doctrine of "incarnation" is false (the claim that Jesus was totally and fully God Most High while at the same time totally and fully a human being, a little lower than the angels).

In effect, what is described by the "incarnation" doctrine would end up with the impression that Jesus had two totally different sentiencies at once, for it is claimed that Jesus was and is omniscient, having sentiency of abosolutely everything in the entire universe, while at the same time, Jesus, as a human, only had the sentiency of a human, and was thus not omnisicent. In reality, this would mean that Jesus himself is two persons, one with the omniscient sentiency, and one that does not have the omniscient sentiency.

Likewise, traditionally, the very celebration of "Christmas/Noel" has been associated with the false teaching of the "incarnation", indeed, "the Incarnation of God" is often used almost as a synonym for "Christmas/Noel":

"Christmas - The Incarnation of God."
http://johnmarkhicks.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/christmas-the-incarnation-of-god/

"Christmas Incarnation" "the real meaning of Christmas -- the incarnation of God"
http://www.jesuswalk.com/christmas-incarnation/christmas-incarnation.htm

"The greatest miracle in Christmas is of course Incarnation, the birth of God on earth." "The greatest Miracle the world has ever seen thus is Christmas, the incarnation of God."
http://living.oneindia.in/christmas/2007/christmas-stories/christmas-miracles-christmas-celebration.html

"to celebrate the birth of Jesus and proclaim their belief in the Incarnation (God made flesh)."
http://encyclopedia.farlex.com/Noel

"Advent and Christmas draw our focus to the mystery of the Incarnation, of God becoming man."
http://thecatholicspirit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=872&Itemid=108

"Christmas is the celebration of the incarnation of God."
http://www.cresourcei.org/cyxmas.html

"the account of incarnate deity.... " (The context shows that the author is using the word "deity" to mean the God of the Bible, the Most High.

"The Feast of the Incarnation... The incarnation of God."
http://www.virtualmuseum.ca/Exhibitions/Noel/angl/incarnat.htm

"a holiday celebrating the birth of God Incarnate."
http://brothersjuddblog.com/archives/2002/12/why_are_there_no_good_chanukah_1.html

"celebrates the birth of Christ and the wonderful mystery of the incarnation" "the good news of Christmas and the incarnation"
http://www.christchurch-cardiff.org.uk/show.pl?Magazine

"Birth of Christ, Incarnation, Nativity and Christmas"
http://www.abcog.org/xmas.htm

"Christmas is the church's celebration of the Incarnation, the supreme mystery that the holy and almighty God took on human flesh and was born in this world of the Virgin Mary."
http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/christmas.htm

"The incarnation of God becoming human and actually living among us is the Wonder of the Christmas story."
http://www.petrafel.org/images/message_transcript/The%20Wonder%20of%20Christmas.pdf

"Christmas focuses on the incarnation of Jesus" "The Incarnation, then, refers to God taking upon Himself a human form. So when Jesus was born into the world, Godfor one time in all human historybecame man!"
http://asiteforthelord.com/articles/theincarnationofjesus.doc

"The Christmas season celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ, the incarnation of God."
http://www.elca.org/Growing-In-Faith/Worship/Planning/Christmas.aspx

"The Christmas festival is about the incarnation of God"
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/george_pitcher/blog/2008/12/02/christmas_is_for_israel_too___

"the pinnacle of Advent comes with Christmas, when we celebrate the Incarnation of God. "
http://dotnettemplar.net/An+American+Catholics+Thoughts+On+Christmas.aspx

"the very heart and meaning of Christmas ... the wonder of the Incarnation (the birth of God-made-man Jesus)"
http://lichfieldcathedralschool.co.uk/newsmiscthe_chaplains_christmas_message.html

"The Christmas Marvel" "The birth of God! It took place in Bethlehem."
http://www.postchronicle.com/religion/article_212194723.shtml

Thus, by traditional expression, the event described by the word "Christmas", which is often used as a translation and synonym of "Noel", is seen to mean the "incarnation of God," which, by extension, refers to "the birth of God." As such, "Christmas" is really proclaimed by most "Christians" to be a celebration of man's dogma that Jesus is God, especially that of the trinity doctrine, which dogma has to be added to and read into the scriptures. This dogma of man, in effect, would mean to make Jesus himself into an idol, since it ends up proclaiming the creature to possess the glory that only belongs to the Creator Most High.
http://godandson.reslight.net

The false dogma of man --the incarnation of God -- is also expressed in the Christmas carol, "Hark the Herald Angels Sing"

Veiled in flesh the Godhead see;
Hail th' Incarnate Deity,
Pleased as man with men to dwell
Jesus, our Emmanuel.
Hark! The herald angels sing, "Glory to the newborn King."

http://www.chespres.org/resources/sermons/ChesPres_20061224S.asp
http://wackyanne.tripod.com/musicrm/xmtrad2.htm
http://allspiritchristmas.co.uk/

Another carol, "In the Bleak Midwinter" says:

In the bleak midwinter a stable-place sufficed
The Lord God incarnate, Jesus Christ.

http://www.graceriverforest.org/download/school/Christmas.pdf

Another carol, "How Should A King Come" has the lines:

And a King lay hid in a virgins womb, and there were no crowds to see Him come.
At last in a barn in a manger of hay He came, and God incarnate lay!

http://www.dante.trieste.it/mediadante/anno06_07/caroles06.pdf

Yes, we should "flee from idolatry"
http://idolatry.reslight.net/
http://idolatry.reslight.net/cmas.html

I have also found references to the pagan "noel log", "noel" being used almost as a synonym for "yule".
http://tinyurl.com/8ofs4h
http://tinyurl.com/9qvkmk

See also:
http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-7NMryvAjfrUDGdpZP_AvOQ--?cq=1&p=25


Some related books (I do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given by these authors):

Pagan Christmas: The Plants, Spirits, and Rituals at the Origins of Yuletide

Christmas In Ritual and Tradition: Christian and Pagan

Restoring the Biblical Christ: Is Jesus God?

Divine Truth or Human Tradition? - A Reconsideration of the Roman-Protestant Docrtine of the Trinity


CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board

Matthew 12:8 - Lord of the Sabbath

The following scriptures are presented as proof that Jesus is his God, since Jesus said that he is "lord of the sabbath." It is claimed that this means that Jesus is "lord" over God's law, and that since he is lord of God's law, this means that jesus is God (Jehovah, Yahweh).

From the World English translation:

Matthew 12:8 - For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

Mark 2:28 - Therefore the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.

Luke 6:5 - He said to them, "The Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

The idea that what Jesus said here means that Jesus is his God has to be added to, read into the scriptures by way of assumptions, and then reading those assumptions into what Jesus said. The assumptions are made that since Jesus said that he is lord of the sabbath, that this means that he is lord over God's law, and this further means that Jesus is his God. And the assumptions are made for the purpose of serving the assumption that Jesus is Yahweh.

Jesus said that all things that he has had been given to him by his Father. (Matthew 28:18; Luke 10:22) Jesus further identified his God and Father as the only true God. (John 17:1,3) Thus whatever lordship that Jesus has was given to Jesus by the only true God. Peter said: "God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:36) This agrees with Isaiah 61:1, where the promised one is depicted as stating: "Yahweh has anointed me." The word "Christ" means "anointed one." The only true God, Yahweh, has made Jesus "lord" -- ruler, master -- of all things, excluding God Himself, and this includes the antitype of the "shadow" sabbaths. (Galatians 4:1; Colossians 2:16,17; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Ephesians 1:3,17,20-22) Being the the promised son of the man (Matthew 19:28; 25:31; 26:64; Mark 2:10; 14:62; Luke 18:31; 21:27; 22:69), that is, the promised Son, (seed, offspring) of David (Psalm 89:36; 132:11; Isaiah 9:6,7; Isaiah 11:1; Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15; Matthew 1:1; John 7:42; Acts 2:30; Romans 1:3), Jesus is made lord and given dominion over all -- excluding God, who gives this dominion to Jesus. (Psalm 2:6-8; 45:7; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; 11:2; 42:1; 61:1-3; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; Matthew 12:28; 28:28; Luke 1:32; 4:14,18; 5:17; John 3:34; 5:19,27,30; 10:18,36-38; Acts 2:22; 10:38; Romans 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:27; 2 Corinthians 13:4; Colossians 1:15,16; 2:10; Ephesians 1:17-22; Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:2,4,6,9; 1 Peter 3:22) This does not mean that Jesus is the only true God who has made Jesus "lord."

It is also true that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had used Jesus in the making of the ages (Hebrews 1:1,2), which brings up the possibility that Jesus was used by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in giving the Law to Moses, and that, in this sense he could be referred to as "Lord of the sabbath." If this assumption is correct, however, such an application still does not mean that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Nevertheless, "Lord" in the Greek is anarthrous; it does not have the definite article. It is not saying that Jesus is "the" Lord of the sabbath, but rather, Jesus is simply called "Lord" or "Master" of the sabbath. Jesus was "master" of the sabbath, not because he was God, but because he, as the son of the man, that is, as the promised son of the man, David (see scriptures above), being born under the Law (Galatians 4:4), obeyed the Law without failure. Had he disobeyed that law in one small part, he could not have actually fulfilled the Law, and thus he would have nothing to sacrifice, since he would be just as guilty and in need of redemption from condemnation as any other man. (Matthew 5:17; James 2:10) Jesus was therefore, as the promised son of the man, David, master of the sabbath, obeying God's laws concerning the sabbath perfectly. Jesus' obedience, and his sacrifice of right to human life gained by that obedience, fulfilled the Law, and thus the Law was figuratively nailed to the stauros with Jesus. -- Colossians 2:14.

The offering in sacrifice of Jesus' blood and body brought forth the inauguration of another covenant, called the "New Covenant." (Matthew 26:28; Mark 14:24; 22:20; 1 Corinthians 11:25; Hebrews 10:14,29; 12:24; 13:20) Through faith in his blood, the Jew can become counted as dead to the Law (Romans 7:4), counted as having died with Jesus (Romans 6:8,11), so as to belong to Jesus, being imputed justification and sanctified through the blood of the new covenant. -- Romans 3,4.

Additionally, Jesus knew from his God and Father (John 8:28) what was really in observance of the law, and what it was "lawful" to do on the sabbath, as opposed to the strict applications that Jews were making concerning the sabbath. Jesus said "it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath day." (Matthew 12:12) Some parts of the law apply over other parts of the Law, as Jesus illustrated by David's eating of the shewbread, which was, strictly speaking, unlawful. But "mercy" in the Law is of greater importance in some instances, so that what would otherwise be "unlawful" would be "lawful" -- permitted by the law.

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Jesus as the Human Son of God

The claim is made by some trinitarians that the expression "Son of God" means that Jesus is/was 100% God, and yet that Jesus is/was also 100% human. It is further claimed that Jesus was/is not a mixture of the two, since such a mixture is alleged to be an impossibility.

The truth is that, scripturally, it is not a matter of Jesus' being a mixture of two. The scriptures show that the expressions "the son of the Most High", and the "son of God" do not mean that Jesus is the Most High.

Luke 1:30 The angel said to her, "Don't be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Luke 1:31 Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a son, and will call his name 'Jesus.'
Luke 1:32 - He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. [Yahweh] God will give to him the throne of his father, David.
Luke 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end of his kingdom."
Luke 1:34 Mary said to the angel, "How will this be, seeing I am a virgin?"
Luke 1:35 The angel answered her, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the holy one which is born from you will be called the Son of God.

Matthew 1:20 - But when he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, don't be afraid to take to yourself Mary, your wife, for that which is conceived (gennao -- begotten*) in her is of the Holy Spirit.
============
*See this word used in John 3:3,4,5,6,7,8. The King James Version renders this word various ways, including "begat", "born", "gender", and "bring forth".
http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1080

Here we find that the one to be called the "the son of the Most High", "the Son of God," was indeed flesh in the womb of Mary, nothing more, nothing less, except that his flesh, his body, was provided by God Himself, and thus he was not born into this world as a son of disobedience, a son of wrath, under the bondage of corruption. -- Ecclesiastes 1:5; 7:13; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 8:21; Ephesians 2:2,3; Hebrews 10:5; 1 Peter 2:22; 1 John 3:5.

The scriptures nowhere speak of the birth or begettal of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (who is also the God of Jesus -- Exodus 3:15 (Acts 3:13); Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16; Acts 3:22,23); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12) ; we do find that Jesus "the son of God" was begotten, not as "God" in the womb of Mary, but as a flesh and blood human being, nothing more, nothing less.

The scriptures in no place refer to Jesus as the Most High, but he is "the son of the Most High." -- Genesis 14:22; Psalm 7:17; 83:18; 92:1; Luke 1:32; John 13:16

We have no scriptural reason to add to and read into any of this that "the Son of God" means that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and at the same was a human being who was not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To so reason leads to more and more assumptions that are added to the scriptures to justify the reasoning, such as adding to and reading into the scriptures that since the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is spoken of as the God of Jesus, then Jesus the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is not the Jesus the human being who has as his God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Jesus.
Taking this to its logical conclusion would lead to the conclusion that the assumed Jesus the God is not the same person as Jesus the human being who has claimed to be Jesus the God/being who is the God of Jesus.

Trinitarians often present further assumptions which have to be added to the scriptures when it is claimed that Jesus was "begotten" [which means to be brought forth into existence] in eternity, that is, outside of time, and thus it is further claimed that Jesus has always existed since he was begotten [brought forth into existence] outside of time. In reality, such an idea would mean that Jesus was never brought forth into existence, since it is alleged that he has alway existed, and also since no time was existing that would have any relation to his being brought forth into existence. We can definitely say, however, that the begettal in the womb of Mary of the son of the Most High is not referring to any alleged begettal of the son of the Most High in eternity. That which was begotten in the womb of Mary was indeed "the son of the Most High," "the son of God," and not the begettal of a God being/nature of Jesus. (Luke 1:32,35) We should also note that Isaac is spoken of as being born/begotten of the spirit in Galatians 4:29.

We read of others who are said to be "sons of the Most High" in Psalm 82:6. These are evidently the same sons that is spoken of in John 1:11,12, those to whom the Logos came. (John 1:14,11,12; 10:35) These are made "sons of God" through faith in Jesus, and are led by God's spirit, being born -- begotten/brought forth -- of the spirit. (Galatians 3:7; Romans 8:14; John 3:8) The begettal of the spirit then places them in the family of God as sons of the Most High, as new creatures.

Galatians 3:4-6 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a bondservant though he is lord of all: 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed of the father. So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world: but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law covenant, that he might redeem them that were under the law covenant, that we might receive the placement as sons. And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. -- THE REVISED VERSION (American Edition) Improved and Corrected from manuscripts discovered and published to A.D. 1999.

Many trinitarians will admit that the expression "son of the Most High" in Luke 1:31 refers to Jesus as a human, and not as the Most High. In so doing, however, they are unwittingly admitting that "son of the Most High" does not mean that the son is also "Most High". Likewise, the expression "Son of God" does not mean that God reproduced himself as an alleged offspring "nature/being" of God Almighty, but rather that the son brought forth in the womb of Mary was the Christ, whom the Jews recognized was to be "the Son of God." (Matthew 26:63) While in the days of his flesh, the Son of God was flesh, nothing more, nothing less. -- John 1:14; Hebrews 5:7.

Additionally, the word "begotten/born" [brought forth] in the Bible does not necessarily mean to be brought forth of the same substance. This is a false reasoning of man, based on the laws of reproduction that God has placed on the reproduction of his living creation on the earth. (Genesis 1:11,12,21,24) From this it is supposed that these laws of physical reproduction should also apply to the Creator, so that for the Creator to have a son would mean that the Son would be of the same substance as his Father, and thus equal to his Father in every way, that is, he would be a God being/nature. The scriptures, however, never say this.

When Jesus was begotten/born of the holy spirit in the womb of Mary (Matthew 1:20), he was not begotten as a spirit being, but as a human being. If the theory of being begotten produces the same substance from which it was begotten be true, then Jesus as begotten in the womb of Mary was of the same substance as the holy spirit, and would not be flesh at all. However, in reality, that which was begotten in the womb of Mary as flesh, a little lower than the angels, nothing more, nothing less.
http://studies.reslight.net/bos.html

Nor does John 3:3,5,7 offer any proof that being begotten/born of the spirit means that one is a spirit being, as some have assumed. Jesus also said we must be begotten/born of water; does this mean that we are to become water beings, as well as spirit beings? (John 3:5) Obviously, Jesus is talking about something other than becoming water beings or spirit beings as result of the begettal of water and spirit.
http://studies.reslight.net/wb.html

The scriptures show that Jesus was begotten/born/brought forth three times.

(1) as the firstborn creature. -- Colossians 1:15; Proverbs 8:22-25.
http://godandson.reslight.net/jesus-beginning.html

(2) of the holy spirit as a human, born of a woman, under the law, a little lower than the angels. -- Matthew 1:20; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 2:9.

(3) from the dead when he raised from the dead. -- Psalm 2:7; Acts 13:33; Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 1:5; 5:5.
http://atonement.reslight.net/raisedspirit.html


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Matthew 4:7 and Luke 4:12

The World English translation is used throughout this study, unless otherwise noted. The "Holy Name," Yahweh, is supplied in the New Testament at appropriate places.

Matthew 4:7 - Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test [Yahweh], your God.'" King James has "the Lord, your God."

Luke 4:12 - Jesus answering, said to him, "It has been said, 'You shall not tempt [Yahweh] your God.'"

Deuteronomy 6:16 - You shall not tempt Yahweh your God.

The above scriptures are being presented as proof that Jesus is God, that is, that Jesus is allegedly a person of the only true God (trinitarian).

A few of the sites where this claim is made:
http://scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html
http://groups.msn.com/DiscussionForum/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=4936&all_topics=0
http://fellowcatholic.blogspot.com/search/label/CHRISTOLOGY
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080525094053AAEQjXV
http://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080211112726AAxq3F2
http://www.churchofhopeontheweb.org/God/son.htm
http://markcephastan.blogspot.com/2006/10/jesus-new-moses-who-else.html
The above sites are given, not because we believe what they present but for reference only.

Actually, if Satan thought that Jesus was God Almighty then he would have known how fruitless it would have been to try to deceive God so as to provoke God to sin. However, there is no indication whatsoever that Satan thought that he was trying to get Yahweh to sin.

Satan did not think that Jesus was God, but rather the son of God:

"If you are the Son of God." -- Matthew 4:3,6; Luke 4:9.

This was the emphasis that Satan himself was putting on his tests of Jesus, that is, in effect, Satan was saying to Jesus: "I want you to prove that you are son of God by doing this...." In reality, it was Satan's hopes to trick Jesus, to deceive Jesus, into being disobedient. Satan was not asking Jesus to prove that Jesus was God. Certainly Satan would have known if Jesus was Yahweh, and knowing that, would have also known that it would fruitless to try to deceive Yahweh into disobeying or denying Himself.

Let us read the context:

Matthew 4:5 - Then the devil took him into the holy city. He set him on the pinnacle of the temple,
Matthew 4:6 - and said to him, "If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, 'He will give his angels charge concerning you.' and, 'On their hands they will bear you up, So that you don't dash your foot against a stone.'"
Matthew 4:7- Jesus said to him, "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test Yahweh, your God.'"

What did Jesus say? Jesus did not appeal to Himself, so as to tell Satan, I am your God whom you should not test," but rather Jesus appeals on his own behalf to written Word of his God: "Again, it is written, 'You shall not test [Yahweh], your God'" (Matthew 4:7), thereby showing his denial to submit to the temptation of Satan. The expression "your God" refers to Yahweh as the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Exodus 3:14,15), who is also the God of Jesus, the God who sent Jesus. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; 5:30; 6:38; 17:1,3; 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.
http://tinyurl.com/yukbvs
http://godandson.reslight.net/jesusnotyhwh.html

Jesus was referring to the Law as given to Israel, Deuteronomy 6:16, which words were spoken to the nation of Israel, which was the only nation which had Yahweh as their God by covenant relationship. (Exodus 19:5,6; Deuteronomy 7:6; Amos 3:2) Thus, the words "your God" are in reference to the Israel's God. Was Jesus here claiming that he [Jesus] was Yahweh, and was Jesus telling Satan that he [Jesus] was Satan's God (as though Satan were under the Law through Moses) and that Satan should not be testing Satan's God? In reality, such an idea has to be added to and read into what Jesus said, and such an idea would actually take what Jesus said out of the context of the quote that Jesus gave, so as to apply Jesus as being Satan's God.

On the other hand, Jesus was, by birth, an Israelite, born under the law. (Galatians 4:4) Jesus knew who his God was. Jesus was applying the verse to himself as an Israelite, that he [Jesus], who worshiped Yahweh as his God, should not test Yahweh by submitting to the stunt that Satan was telling him to do.

Therefore, in reality, the fact is that Jesus was not saying to Satan that Jesus was "Yahweh, your God," the God that Satan was not to test.

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