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Saturday, August 23, 2008

John 1:1,2 - The Word was Mighty

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [TON THEON], and the Word was God [THEOS]. The same was in the beginning with God [TON THEON]. -- John 1:1,2, World English - transliterations from the Westcott & Hort Interlinear.

Obviously, John is not, by using the Greek word THEOS as applied to the Word, saying that the Word was TON THEON whom the Word was with. One is not "with" an individual, and at the same time that individual whom he was with. What the trinitarian has to do in order to force the trinitarian dogma into John's statement is to assume that TON THEON refers to the alleged "first person of God," that is, God the Father, and that THEOS applied to the Word refers to their alleged second person of God, God the Son. John does not speak of the holy spirit, so they have to assume and add the holy spirit.

I have no doubt that TON THEON refers to the God and Father of Jesus, for Jesus identifies who he was with (John 17:5), and Jesus also lets us know that his God and Father is the only true God. (John 17:3) This we can verify by comparing spiritual revealment with spiritual revealment.

The trinitarian claims that since Jesus is called THEOS (god) in John 1:1, and since there is only one true God, then Jesus has to be that only true God, or else he has to be a false god. This disregards the Hebraic tradition that allows the usage of the words for "God" in a more general sense of might, power, authority, etc. Thus, according to their line of reasoning, if Jesus is "god", then he is either the one true God, or else a false god.

However, even most Bible language scholars who believe in the trinity do recognize a usage of the words for God in the general sense of might, power, etc. Even the translators of the King James Version recognized such usage. This can be demonstrated in such verses where the KJV renders the word for "God" (forms of EL and ELOHIM in the Hebrew) so as to denote strength, power, might, rulership, etc., such as in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). If one were to substitute "false god" in these verses, we would have some absurd statements. This proves that these words are used in a sense other than the only true God, or as "false god."

In Psalm 82:1, as noted above, the KJV renders one of the words for "God" as "mighty." Jesus quotes from part of this Psalm -- Psalm 82:6,7 -- in John 10:34,35, rendering the Hebrew word ELOHIM by the Greek words "THEOI," a plural form of THEOS, which word is used of the Logos in John 1:1. Jesus was not saying that the sons of God to whom the Word came are false gods, but he is using the word in sense of authority. The sons of God to whom the Word (the Logos) came were indeed given power, authority, to become sons of God. (John 1:12) With this authority, they can thus rightly be called ELOHIM, THEOI. They are not "false gods," but they are given their authority from God through Jesus.
For more concerning Psalm 82:6,7, see:
http://godandson.reslight.net/you-are-gods.html

Likewise, Jesus, being the firstborn son of God (Colossians 1:15), can also be called THEOS. Thus, the suggested rendering of John 1:1 in reference to the Word is "The Word was mighty."

For more concerning John 1:1,2, see:
John 1:1 and the Trinitarian
James White and "een" in John 1:1
John 1:1 and THEOS
The Logos as THEOS
In the Beginning
John 1:1 and the Logos of God

Response to

Bible Basics Trinity - Part 2 Redux


It is being claimed that we stated that Jesus in John 1:1,2 is not being called God, but mighty. This is not exactly what we say, and is deceptive. What we say is that the application of the Greek word for "God" as applied to the Logos in John 1:1,2 is a Hebraism which, in English, should be understood as meaning "mighty". John was a Hebrew and certainly would have knowledge of such Hebraic usage. Indeed, since John emphasizes the second time that Jesus was with TON THEON, (the God), the default reasoning would be that Jesus was not TON THEON whom he was with, and thus, that the application of THEOS to Jesus is not as the only true God whom he declared himself to be with (John 17:1,3,5), but rather that John was assigning to the Jesus the glory of might that "was" [past tense] while he was with his God and Father before the world of mankind had been made through him (John 1:10), and which glory Jesus did not possess while he was in the days of his flesh. -- Hebrews 5:7. Indeed, in view of the context and the rest of the Bible, the default reasoning should be to imagine and assume that John was saying that Jesus "was" his God, but rather the default reasoning should be to apply that which God has revealed by means of his Holy Spirit, as has been done above, to see in what manner the word THEOS should be understood as applied to the Logos.

See:
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”

Indeed, one has to call heavily upon the spirit of human imagination in order to "see" the trinity dogma in what John wrote in John 1:1,2. This has been discussed at:

John 1:1 and Trinity Assumptions

It is being claimed that the Hebraic application of "mighty" does not apply to Jesus since it is being further claimed that "no man other than Jesus has ever had the divine name applied to Himself of claimed for by Him." The first claim is dependent on the second claim that Jesus applied God's Holy Name to himself, and that others applied God's Holy Name to Jesus. Both claims we deny. It is only by the addition of human imagination that any scripture can be thought to be applying God's Holy Name to God's Son in any manner that would mean that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who sent Jesus. (Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews1:1,2) God's name, however, is called upon all who are in covenant relationship with Him (2 Chronicles 7:14; Isaiah 43:7; 65:1; Jeremiah 7:10,11,13,40; 25:9; 32:34; 34:15; Amos 9:12; Acts 15:14), and Jesus declared that his God has a made a covenant with him. (Luke 22:29, Rotherham)

Jesus, of course, being sent by Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, did speak for, and act in behalf of, his God, in a way that no other human has ever done, although many prophets and judges did the similar in the Old Testament times. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, by means of his holy spirit, reveals through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh as his unipersonal God and Father, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; 12:26; Luke 13:35; 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; 4:34; 5:19,30,36,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; 3:13-26; 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 8:6; 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.

The scriptures abound with cases where Yahweh uses various servants but is given the credit for their actions, since he was the directing force, very similar to Jesus. — Exodus 3:10,12; 12:17; 18:10; Numbers 16:28; Judges 2:6,18; 3:9,10; 6:34; 11:29; 13:24,25; 14:6,19; 15:14,18; 16:20,28-30, 2 Kings 4:27; Isaiah 43:11, 45:1-6; etc.

For discussions of scriptures for which it is often claimed that God's Holy Name is attributed to Jesus, see:


The Holy Name
The Holy Name Page 2

See also:

Focus on the Holy Name

Directly, God's Holy Name is only applied to the unipersonal God and Father of Jesus.

See:
The God (Supreme Being – The Might) of Jesus (Scriptures)

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