This has been moved to:
https://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2022/03/john10-38.html
God willing, we will be moving all posts in this site and hope to eventually remove this site altogether.
Monday, December 28, 2015
Sunday, March 22, 2015
Who is the Single Person Jehovah God in the Bible?
This page is briefly address the scriptures presented in posting called "Who is the Single Person Lord God Who Directly Appears to and Covenants With God's People in the Entire Bible?" The posting is written by "Rev". Mario I Quitoriano, evidently of what is being styled as "The Trinitarian All For Jesus Ekklesia Of The Lord God". "Desptite the title, what is actually given are assumptions that are thought prove that Jehovah is more than one person (trinitarian added-on dogma). The conjecture being presented is that Jehovah is more than one person, and thus it is being further assumed that it was not the Father who appeared, but rather it was the second person of the alleged triune Jehovah who appear. It is being imagined and assumed that it is only the "first person" of the imagined and assumed trinune God that cannot be seen, but that the imagined and assumed second person of the imagine and assumed triune God can be seen. While a lot of scriptures are presented, none of them offer any support that Jehovah God is more than one person, and that it was Jesus who made the appearances as "Jehovah" in the Bible.
As I stated in my study, the default scriptural reasoning is not to imagine and assume that Jesus is Jehovah, and then to further imagine and assume that Jesus is a person of Jehovah, but rather it is that Jesus is not Jehovah.
Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the only true Supreme Being who sent Jesus; Jesus speaks the words given to him from the only true Supreme Being. — Exodus 3:13,14; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Isaiah 61:1; John 3:34; 5:19; 6:29; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,42; 10:36; 12:44-50; 14:10,24; 17:1,3,8; Acts 3:13-26; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Galatians 4:4; Hebrews 1:1,2; 1 John 4:9,10.
It is the God and Father of Jesus who has made Jesus both Lord and Christ (Ezekiel 34:23,24; Isaiah 61:1,2; Acts 2:36), and has exalted him to the highest position in the universe, next to the only Most High.– Acts 2:33,36; 5:31; Philippians 2:9; Ephesians 1:3,17-23; 1 Corinthians 15:27; Hebrews 1:4; 1 Peter 3:22.
The default reasoning is that Jesus is NOT Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who sanctified and sent His son into the world of mankind. — Isaiah 61:1; John 3:17; 5:36,37; 6:38,57; 8:42; 10:36; 17:1,3; Romans 8:3; Galatians 4:4; 1 John 4:9-14.
Alleged Plurality of God and Elohim
The claim is presented and assumed that "plurality of Subjects or Persons in the Biblical GOD (ELOHIM) [Gen. 1:26] and/or LORD (YAHWEH) GOD (ELOHIM) [Gen. 3:22] and/or LORD (YAHWEH) [Gen. 11:6-7]."
Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22 and Genesis 11:6,7 simply show that the unipersonal Elohim spoke to or of someone else who is not Himself. There is nothing there about God as being more than one person. Elohim in Genesis 1:26 does not mean more than one person as can be seen from its usage in Genesis 1:2; Exodus 7:1 and Psalm 45:7. See the following studies:
“Let Us”: God Speaks to His Son
Genesis 3:
More to follow, God willing...******
Scriptures presented:
Saturday, February 28, 2015
Genesis 18:1-3,22,33; 19:1,18 - Three Men Who Visit Abraham
Several scriptures are being presented in Genesis 18 and 19 that are claimed to present, or being speaking of, the trinity.
The first is Genesis 18:1-3:
Jehovah, of course, may make appearances through as many of his angels as he wishes. There is nothing in these verses about Jehovah being three persons in one Supreme Being. The idea that there is something here about a triune God has to be imagined beyond what is written, assumptions have to be formulated beyond what is written, and then those assumption have to added to, and read into, what is stated.
As to statements given in Genesis 18 and 19, I will say that some reasoning is involved if one is to come to some conclusion regarding what is stated. One could simply let the scripture lie without seeking any conclusion, but since some have added their trinitarian dogma into it, it has become somewhat incumbent upon the non-trinitarian to also reach a conclusion regarding these angels. Such reasoning should be harmony with the entire Bible. It still remains that the default reasoning is that Jesus is not Jehovah, as I have shown in the study: Jesus is Not Jehovah (Yahweh).
The context establishes that these "men" were not actually human beings, but angels who spoke the words of Jehovah. Genesis 19:1,15, establishes that these "men" were angels. Genesis 19:13 establishes that they were sent by, and representing, Jehovah. With this established in the context, it should be understood that these men could be spoken of as "Jehovah", with the contextual understanding that they were angels of Jehovah, representing Jehovah.
The next scripture is Genesis 18:22:
Jehovah, of course, can certainly make an appearance by means of his angel; this does not mean that His angel is actually Jehovah. Nevertheless, the idea that these angels of Jehovah were not actually angels, but Jehovah himself (Jehovah theophanies) has to be imagined beyond what is written, and contrary to what is actually written in Genesis 19:13.
That these angels, messengers, of Jehovah represent Jehovah is more in harmony with the rest of the Bible. However, since angels of Jehovah are referred to as ELOHIM (gods -- Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7), the appearance of an angel in physical form could be referred to as a theophany, although that is not the way the word "theophany" is generally used.
Nothing is said, however, to the effect that any one of these angels was the prehuman Jesus (although it is possible that Jesus could have appeared as such an angel of Jehovah), or that any one of these angels was Jehovah's Holy Spirit. See my study: The Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
Nevertheless, the scriptures show that there is only one Jehovah:
Along with this is presented Genesis 18:33:
While it is reasonable to conclude that this angel of Jehovah returned to heaven, that is not specifically stated. At any rate, an angel of Jehovah is a messenger who relates the words of Jehovah.
Genesis 19:1:
Genesis 19:1 actually identifies the "men" as "angels". An angel is a messenger, one who delivers a message for another who is not himself. However, it is not clear that Lot himself knew that these men were angels until later.
Related to this however, we should also note:
Genesis 19:18 is given from the JWs' New World Translation as:
In Genesis 19:18, however, based on Ginsburg's list in which he claimed the Sopherim changed the Holy Name to a form of adon, the NWT puts "Jehovah" into Genesis 19:18.
As I have shown in my study, "Adonay, The Tetragrammaton, and the Great Isaiah Scroll", some of these places are validated by the Great Isaiah Scroll, but many are not. Thus, it appears that Ginsburg may have been over zealous in his claims. Additionally, he may have been biased by the trinity dogma in some of his claims.
Nevertheless, I do not believe that Lot addressed the angels as "Jehovah", as the NWT would have it. One should note that the original Hebrew -- which has no written vowels -- does not distinguish between the words often transliterated as "Adoni" (my lord) and "Adonai" (my lords, or, when used as plural intensive, superior/supreme lord). In other words, there was actually no written distinction between the plural or singular form of this word.
The vowel points that are now present in the Biblical Hebrew were added by the Masoretes almost 500 years after the first century. The Masoretes have the word in the plural here, which has led many to think Lot was referring to the angels as being Jehovah. There is nothing in the scriptures however that say that the plural form has to only be used as a plural intensive of Jehovah. Just as the plural form of the word transliterated as ELOHIM is used of the sons of the Most High in Psalm 82:6, so the plural form transliterated as ADONAI may be used of the angels.
Since the context indicates that there are two angels, it should be understood that Lot spoke of them in the plural, adonai, "my lords".
Finally, Genesis 19:24 is presented with the claim we see two Jehovahs raining fire and brimstone down upon Sodom and Gomorrah.
There is only one Jehovah:
Jesus declared the one Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1 as being the only true God. -- John 17:1,3.
The default reasoning is still that the Jesus is not Jehovah, the only true God.
Thus seen, none of these scriptures actually present anything about a triune God, or that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is more than one person.
See also the following related studies:
Abraham and the Three Angels
Jehovah Rained Fire From Jehovah
(1) And Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he was sitting at the door of the tent in the heat of the day.[2] And he lifted up his eyes and looked; and, behold, three men were standing by him. And he saw, and he ran to meet them from the entrance of the tent. And he bowed to the ground.[3] And he said, My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, I beg You, do not leave from near Your servant. - (Genesis 18:1-3, Green's Literal)It is claimed that there are three person who appear to Abraham, and that they are identified as being Jehovah (singular).
Jehovah, of course, may make appearances through as many of his angels as he wishes. There is nothing in these verses about Jehovah being three persons in one Supreme Being. The idea that there is something here about a triune God has to be imagined beyond what is written, assumptions have to be formulated beyond what is written, and then those assumption have to added to, and read into, what is stated.
As to statements given in Genesis 18 and 19, I will say that some reasoning is involved if one is to come to some conclusion regarding what is stated. One could simply let the scripture lie without seeking any conclusion, but since some have added their trinitarian dogma into it, it has become somewhat incumbent upon the non-trinitarian to also reach a conclusion regarding these angels. Such reasoning should be harmony with the entire Bible. It still remains that the default reasoning is that Jesus is not Jehovah, as I have shown in the study: Jesus is Not Jehovah (Yahweh).
The context establishes that these "men" were not actually human beings, but angels who spoke the words of Jehovah. Genesis 19:1,15, establishes that these "men" were angels. Genesis 19:13 establishes that they were sent by, and representing, Jehovah. With this established in the context, it should be understood that these men could be spoken of as "Jehovah", with the contextual understanding that they were angels of Jehovah, representing Jehovah.
The next scripture is Genesis 18:22:
And the men faced around from there and went toward Sodom. And Abraham was still standing before Jehovah. - (Genesis 18:22, Green's Literal)It is claimed the man who remained identifies the first Jehovah, and that the other "theophanies" got on their way to Sodom.
Jehovah, of course, can certainly make an appearance by means of his angel; this does not mean that His angel is actually Jehovah. Nevertheless, the idea that these angels of Jehovah were not actually angels, but Jehovah himself (Jehovah theophanies) has to be imagined beyond what is written, and contrary to what is actually written in Genesis 19:13.
That these angels, messengers, of Jehovah represent Jehovah is more in harmony with the rest of the Bible. However, since angels of Jehovah are referred to as ELOHIM (gods -- Psalm 8:5; Hebrews 2:7), the appearance of an angel in physical form could be referred to as a theophany, although that is not the way the word "theophany" is generally used.
Nothing is said, however, to the effect that any one of these angels was the prehuman Jesus (although it is possible that Jesus could have appeared as such an angel of Jehovah), or that any one of these angels was Jehovah's Holy Spirit. See my study: The Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
Nevertheless, the scriptures show that there is only one Jehovah:
There is only one Jehovah: Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 6:4, American Standard Version.
Along with this is presented Genesis 18:33:
And when Jehovah had left off speaking to Abraham, He was finished. And Abraham returned to his place. - (Genesis 18:33, Green's Literal)It claimed that here we see Jehovah #1, who was standing before Abraham left and went back to heaven.
While it is reasonable to conclude that this angel of Jehovah returned to heaven, that is not specifically stated. At any rate, an angel of Jehovah is a messenger who relates the words of Jehovah.
Genesis 19:1:
And the two angels came to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot saw them, and rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face to the earth. -- American Standard.It is claimed that "The other two men who appeared as angels (theophanies) and went to Sodom and later identified themselves too as Jehovah in Gen 19:18.
Genesis 19:1 actually identifies the "men" as "angels". An angel is a messenger, one who delivers a message for another who is not himself. However, it is not clear that Lot himself knew that these men were angels until later.
Related to this however, we should also note:
Genesis 19:12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son-in-law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whomsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of the place:Here these angels tell us that it was "Jehovah" who had sent them. Of course, one may imagine, assume and add to the scripture that it was the alleged first person of Jehovah who had sent the two alleged two other person of Jehovah, but that is not what is stated.
Genesis 19:13 for we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxed great before Jehovah: and Jehovah hath sent us to destroy it.
Genesis 19:18 is given from the JWs' New World Translation as:
Then Lot said to them, "not that, please, Jehovah"However, let us read it from the American Standard Version:
And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my lord.I am not with the Jehovah's Witnesses, and I rarely ever use their translation.
In Genesis 19:18, however, based on Ginsburg's list in which he claimed the Sopherim changed the Holy Name to a form of adon, the NWT puts "Jehovah" into Genesis 19:18.
As I have shown in my study, "Adonay, The Tetragrammaton, and the Great Isaiah Scroll", some of these places are validated by the Great Isaiah Scroll, but many are not. Thus, it appears that Ginsburg may have been over zealous in his claims. Additionally, he may have been biased by the trinity dogma in some of his claims.
Nevertheless, I do not believe that Lot addressed the angels as "Jehovah", as the NWT would have it. One should note that the original Hebrew -- which has no written vowels -- does not distinguish between the words often transliterated as "Adoni" (my lord) and "Adonai" (my lords, or, when used as plural intensive, superior/supreme lord). In other words, there was actually no written distinction between the plural or singular form of this word.
The vowel points that are now present in the Biblical Hebrew were added by the Masoretes almost 500 years after the first century. The Masoretes have the word in the plural here, which has led many to think Lot was referring to the angels as being Jehovah. There is nothing in the scriptures however that say that the plural form has to only be used as a plural intensive of Jehovah. Just as the plural form of the word transliterated as ELOHIM is used of the sons of the Most High in Psalm 82:6, so the plural form transliterated as ADONAI may be used of the angels.
Since the context indicates that there are two angels, it should be understood that Lot spoke of them in the plural, adonai, "my lords".
Finally, Genesis 19:24 is presented with the claim we see two Jehovahs raining fire and brimstone down upon Sodom and Gomorrah.
Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven. -- American Standard Version.Yes, it was Jehovah who made it rain, and the rain came from Jehovah. This is not speaking of two different Jehovahs.
There is only one Jehovah:
Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. -- Deuteronomy 6:4.The one Jehovah is shown to be distinct from Jesus in Isaiah 61:1.
Jesus declared the one Jehovah of Isaiah 61:1 as being the only true God. -- John 17:1,3.
The default reasoning is still that the Jesus is not Jehovah, the only true God.
Thus seen, none of these scriptures actually present anything about a triune God, or that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is more than one person.
See also the following related studies:
Abraham and the Three Angels
Jehovah Rained Fire From Jehovah
Tuesday, February 10, 2015
The Real Reasons for Not Believing the Trinity
Trinitarians often complain that the reason non-trinitarians do not accept the trinity doctrine is that the word "trinity" does not appear in the Bible. Having set up this strawman argument, they then use various words that are often thought to be Biblical concepts, but which words/concepts are not actually found in the Bible.
I do not believe in adding a trinity concept to the Bible, since the Bible no where ever even suggests such a concept. The idea has to be created by thinking beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6), and it has to be formulated into concepts that are no where stated in the Bible, and then those concepts have to be added to, and read into, any and every scripture that one would wish "see" those concepts. The Bible is in full harmony with itself without adding to it all the trinitarian concepts.
Additionally, the added-on "hypostatic union" concept would, in effect, justify sin in the flesh rather than condemn sin in the flesh. It would actually leave proof that a sinless man cannot obey God Almighty, except that such a man be God Almighty. -- Romans 8:3.
Finally, the concept that Jesus is still a man and that he still has the body in which he died would leave us without a redemption, since the Bible says that Jesus offered -- sacrificed -- that body of flesh to God for our sins. -- Luke 22:19; John 6:51; Hebrews 10:10.
See the following sites:
Jesus and His God
Trinity in the Bible?
Son of Jehovah
Jesus is not Jehovah
Saturday, March 29, 2014
Why do Trinitarians take John 8:58 out of context in regards to the trinity?
Why do Trinitarian take John 8:58 out of context in regards to the trinity?
The above question was asked in "Yahoo Answers":
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130201160011AAMlWSi
We have changed "Trinitarian" to "Trinitarians" in our title.
My response to the above follows:
First of all, any thought that Jesus was saying that he was, before Abraham existed, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jaocb of Exodus 3;14,15, has to be imagined beyond what is written, assumptions have to formulated beyond what is written, and those assumptions have to accepted as fact and added to, and read into what Jesus actually stated.
Normally, most modern translators translated a present tense verb used in a past tense context in some past tense form. Most -- not all -- of these translators, however, make an exception to his in John 8:58 in order to make it appear that Jesus was claiming to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In the first link given below, I have presented several translations that do show the contextual past tense setting.
One claims that "I AM" is being altered to "I am"; this is not actually true; indeed it would be more appropriate to say that translators have altered their translations to read "I AM" in John 8:58 instead of "I am", based on their assumption that Jesus was claiming to be EHYEH of Exodus 3:14.
This brings up another point: In Exodus 3:14, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was responding to the question of what was His name. In John 8:58, Jesus was responding to the question concerning his age, not his name. It would indeed be out of context to claim that Jesus repsonded by saying that his name is EHYEH.
Only in the imaginitve realm of trinitarian dogma would anyone think that he was raised up as the prophet like Moses by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2.
The only reason that I can see for ignoring the contextual past tense setting of EGO EIMI (I am) in John 8:58 would be because of the desire to find support for the trinitarian dogma, which dogma is no where to be found in the Bible.
As to whatever reason the Jews thought to kill Jesus, this is not important, since they were seeking some legal excuse to kill Jesus. Jesus, in effect, showed why they wished to kill him in John 8:37-40 and John 10:32. So, if the Jews sought to kill Jesus because they wished to present him as claiming to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then one has to decide who they wish to believe, Jesus, or those lying Jews?
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130201160011AAMlWSi
We have changed "Trinitarian" to "Trinitarians" in our title.
My response to the above follows:
First of all, any thought that Jesus was saying that he was, before Abraham existed, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jaocb of Exodus 3;14,15, has to be imagined beyond what is written, assumptions have to formulated beyond what is written, and those assumptions have to accepted as fact and added to, and read into what Jesus actually stated.
Normally, most modern translators translated a present tense verb used in a past tense context in some past tense form. Most -- not all -- of these translators, however, make an exception to his in John 8:58 in order to make it appear that Jesus was claiming to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. In the first link given below, I have presented several translations that do show the contextual past tense setting.
One claims that "I AM" is being altered to "I am"; this is not actually true; indeed it would be more appropriate to say that translators have altered their translations to read "I AM" in John 8:58 instead of "I am", based on their assumption that Jesus was claiming to be EHYEH of Exodus 3:14.
This brings up another point: In Exodus 3:14, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was responding to the question of what was His name. In John 8:58, Jesus was responding to the question concerning his age, not his name. It would indeed be out of context to claim that Jesus repsonded by saying that his name is EHYEH.
Only in the imaginitve realm of trinitarian dogma would anyone think that he was raised up as the prophet like Moses by the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Acts 3:13-26; Hebrews 1:1,2.
The only reason that I can see for ignoring the contextual past tense setting of EGO EIMI (I am) in John 8:58 would be because of the desire to find support for the trinitarian dogma, which dogma is no where to be found in the Bible.
As to whatever reason the Jews thought to kill Jesus, this is not important, since they were seeking some legal excuse to kill Jesus. Jesus, in effect, showed why they wished to kill him in John 8:37-40 and John 10:32. So, if the Jews sought to kill Jesus because they wished to present him as claiming to be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then one has to decide who they wish to believe, Jesus, or those lying Jews?
Thursday, November 21, 2013
John 1:18 - Only Begotten Theos
Some have cited the earlier manuscripts of John 1:18 as proof that Jesus is Yahweh, since some of these manuscripts have "monogenes theos" (transliterated). Yes, there are ancient manuscripts that have "monogenes theos" in John 1:18. Most manuscripts have *huios* (son), but then most of these manuscripts are of more recent dates.
For earlier manuscripts that give support for either rendering,
See: http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/reference/mscript1.pdf http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/Referenc/AVCor/AVcorr.pdf
I couldn't make out some of the coding but I came up with at least the following manuscripts that have "monogenes theos" in John 1:18:
Papyrus 66 containing John 1:1-21:9
Papyrus 75 containing Lk 3:18-Jo 15:8
Vatican 1209
Sinaiticus
Bohairic Coptic
Therefore, we assume that John 1:18 was originally 'only-begotten god [theos, one of might]", which would mean that in the Bible Jesus is not only referred to as the only-begotten son, but also as the only-begotten mighty one [theos]. We should note that there are still other verses than John 1:18 that speak of Jesus as "only begotten son". (In the NAS, see John 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:17) His being "only-begotten mighty one" would not do away with his being "only begotten son," nor contradict each other, nor does it mean that Jesus possesses an alleged "dual nature" of being the Most High and also the son of the Most High. -- Luke 1:32,35.
Before being begotten as a human, Jesus was indeed begotten as the only-begotten THEOS, having been brought forth as the firstborn of every creature (Colossians 1:15), as a mighty spirit being, similar to, but of greater rank than the angels who are called ELOHIM in Psalm 8:5 (see Hebrews 2:7,9). The angels are mighty spirit beings, and thus they are called elohim, which is the same word that is rendered as God [plural intensive, where the plural is used in a singular setting as denoting superiority or the superlative] or gods [plural]. None of these elohim, however, were begotten, brought forth into being, directly by Yahweh, but all these powers of heaven were created through, by means of, the pre-human Jesus. -- Colossians 1:16.
In order to take the meaning of being brought forth into being out of monogenes, some have argued that the word monogenes only signifies "uniqueness", not that Jesus was actually brought forth into being. Kittel's THEOLOGICAL DICTlONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (Vol. 5, pp. 738-741) 1967, a work produced by trinitarians, observes that monogenes can have a broader meaning than only begotten. However, it goes on to state that when monogenes is used in the New Testament, "It means 'only begotten' in (John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9; John 1:18 the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only begotten to the father. In John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9 monogenes denotes more than the uniqueness or incomparability of Jesus. In all these verses He is expressly called the Son, and He is regarded as such in John 1:14. In John monogenes denotes the origin of Jesus. He is monogenes as the only begotten."
As Kittel notes, monogenes is used in reference to Jesus in John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9. The word monogenes is used of others than Jesus in Luke 7:11,12; 8:41,42; 9:38; Hebrews 11:17. The instances in Luke confirms Kittel's observation that in the New Testament usage, monogenes does generally denote an only begotten son or daughter. Hebrews 11:17 is used of Isaac as the only-begotten son of Abraham, Ishmael no longer being present, and was not counted as heir. -- Genesis 21:10,12; Galatians 4:22,23,30.
Believing that John 1:18 did originally have the word THEOS, does this mean that John was saying that Jesus is Yahweh, the only Most High? No, it only means that John was attributing to Jesus the might, strength, power that he had before coming into the world of mankind to declare his God, and additionally John could also have been referring to the might and power that has been given to him after his resurrection. (Psalm 45:7; Matthew 28:18; Hebrews 1:2,6,9; Philippians 2:9; Colossians 2:10; Psalm 2:7,8; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; Luke 1:32; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14) We need to remember that the Hebrews used the same words for "God" of others than the Most High, but in a secondary sense of might, strength, power.
Realizing that Jesus ascended to the only true God, not that Jesus is the only true God, should tells us that John is not using THEOS of Jesus as he did of the God and Father of Jesus.
See: Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”
Jesus in his pre-human existence, indeed, was "a mighty one" who received life (was "begotten") from the Father (Colossians 1:15; John 17:1,3,5), and, not only that, at the time that John wrote his Gospel, Jesus had been raised from death as a mighty spirit being, and was indeed "a mighty one" residing in heaven with his God and Father, and thus figuratively, was in the bosom of his God and Father. -- John 17:11, 22; 20:21,17.
See also my studies:
The Only Begotten God
Did Jesus Have a Beginning?
Some studies written by others:
"The Only Begotten God"
God's Only Begotten Son
See: http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/reference/mscript1.pdf http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/Referenc/AVCor/AVcorr.pdf
I couldn't make out some of the coding but I came up with at least the following manuscripts that have "monogenes theos" in John 1:18:
Papyrus 66 containing John 1:1-21:9
Papyrus 75 containing Lk 3:18-Jo 15:8
Vatican 1209
Sinaiticus
Bohairic Coptic
Therefore, we assume that John 1:18 was originally 'only-begotten god [theos, one of might]", which would mean that in the Bible Jesus is not only referred to as the only-begotten son, but also as the only-begotten mighty one [theos]. We should note that there are still other verses than John 1:18 that speak of Jesus as "only begotten son". (In the NAS, see John 3:16,18; Hebrews 11:17) His being "only-begotten mighty one" would not do away with his being "only begotten son," nor contradict each other, nor does it mean that Jesus possesses an alleged "dual nature" of being the Most High and also the son of the Most High. -- Luke 1:32,35.
Before being begotten as a human, Jesus was indeed begotten as the only-begotten THEOS, having been brought forth as the firstborn of every creature (Colossians 1:15), as a mighty spirit being, similar to, but of greater rank than the angels who are called ELOHIM in Psalm 8:5 (see Hebrews 2:7,9). The angels are mighty spirit beings, and thus they are called elohim, which is the same word that is rendered as God [plural intensive, where the plural is used in a singular setting as denoting superiority or the superlative] or gods [plural]. None of these elohim, however, were begotten, brought forth into being, directly by Yahweh, but all these powers of heaven were created through, by means of, the pre-human Jesus. -- Colossians 1:16.
In order to take the meaning of being brought forth into being out of monogenes, some have argued that the word monogenes only signifies "uniqueness", not that Jesus was actually brought forth into being. Kittel's THEOLOGICAL DICTlONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (Vol. 5, pp. 738-741) 1967, a work produced by trinitarians, observes that monogenes can have a broader meaning than only begotten. However, it goes on to state that when monogenes is used in the New Testament, "It means 'only begotten' in (John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9; John 1:18 the relation of Jesus is not just compared to that of an only child to its father. It is the relation of the only begotten to the father. In John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9 monogenes denotes more than the uniqueness or incomparability of Jesus. In all these verses He is expressly called the Son, and He is regarded as such in John 1:14. In John monogenes denotes the origin of Jesus. He is monogenes as the only begotten."
As Kittel notes, monogenes is used in reference to Jesus in John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9. The word monogenes is used of others than Jesus in Luke 7:11,12; 8:41,42; 9:38; Hebrews 11:17. The instances in Luke confirms Kittel's observation that in the New Testament usage, monogenes does generally denote an only begotten son or daughter. Hebrews 11:17 is used of Isaac as the only-begotten son of Abraham, Ishmael no longer being present, and was not counted as heir. -- Genesis 21:10,12; Galatians 4:22,23,30.
Believing that John 1:18 did originally have the word THEOS, does this mean that John was saying that Jesus is Yahweh, the only Most High? No, it only means that John was attributing to Jesus the might, strength, power that he had before coming into the world of mankind to declare his God, and additionally John could also have been referring to the might and power that has been given to him after his resurrection. (Psalm 45:7; Matthew 28:18; Hebrews 1:2,6,9; Philippians 2:9; Colossians 2:10; Psalm 2:7,8; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; Luke 1:32; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14) We need to remember that the Hebrews used the same words for "God" of others than the Most High, but in a secondary sense of might, strength, power.
Realizing that Jesus ascended to the only true God, not that Jesus is the only true God, should tells us that John is not using THEOS of Jesus as he did of the God and Father of Jesus.
See: Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”
Jesus in his pre-human existence, indeed, was "a mighty one" who received life (was "begotten") from the Father (Colossians 1:15; John 17:1,3,5), and, not only that, at the time that John wrote his Gospel, Jesus had been raised from death as a mighty spirit being, and was indeed "a mighty one" residing in heaven with his God and Father, and thus figuratively, was in the bosom of his God and Father. -- John 17:11, 22; 20:21,17.
See also my studies:
The Only Begotten God
Did Jesus Have a Beginning?
Some studies written by others:
"The Only Begotten God"
God's Only Begotten Son
Friday, November 15, 2013
John 1:1 and the Son of God, Immanuel
This is in response to:
My Trinity Question
I am not here addressing what is stated there in detail, but mostly giving links to where I have discussed the points before. Please note that I am not just addressing what is present in the original post, but rather what is presented in the comments.
Preliminary:
Jesus is Not Yahweh
The God (Supreme Being – The Might) of Jesus (Scriptures)
Who is Jesus?
John 1:1
John 1:1 proves that Jesus was deity (mighty) with (or towards) the only true Might of the universe (John 1:1,3,5), the source of all might; it does not prove that Jesus is in the only might of the universe.
If Jesus is the Might whom he is with, then Jesus is the Father, for Jesus identified whom he was with in John 17:1,3,5. Jesus was with the only true God, thus, the default is that Jesus is not the only true God whom he was with. Even most trinitarians say that the first theos in John 1:1 is not being used in the same manner as the second theos, for they use their imagination and form the assumption that the first theos is not speaking of three persons, but rather of one of the alleged persons of their triune God, while the second theos does not speak of the three persons, but the alleged second person of their triune God. Nevertheless, it is obvious that the second theos is not used in the same manner as the first theos. In the text John emphasizes the difference between his usage of theos by repeating that the Logos was with God, thus indicating that the Logos was NOT "God" whom he was with, and that "god" applied to the Logos means something different than expressing "the only true God" (John 17:5).
There is Only One True God
The Logos of God
What Beginning?
John 1:1 and Trinitarian Assumptions
The Logos was Theos
John 1:1 - In the Beginning
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”
If Jesus is the Might whom he is with, then Jesus is the Father, for Jesus identified whom he was with in John 17:1,3,5. Jesus was with the only true God, thus, the default is that Jesus is not the only true God whom he was with. Even most trinitarian say that the first theos is not being used in the same manner as the second theos, for they use their imagination and form the assumption that the first theos is not speaking of three persons, but rather of one of the alleged persons of their triune God, while the second theos does not speak of the three persons, but the alleged second persons of their triune God. Yes, it is obvious that the second theos is not used in the same manner as the first theos. In the text John emphasizes the difference between his usage of theos by repeating that the Logos was with God.
http://jesus.rlbible.com/>=tag=john-11
Romans 9:5
See:
Who is Over All
2 Corinthians 3:17
Yahweh, the Spirit
1 Timothy 6:15,16
The Only Ruler Who Possesses Immortality
ELOHIM
Elohim – Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?
Genesis 1:26 – Let Us and Elohim
Hebrews 1:8 – Why is Jesus called “Elohim” and “Theos”? Psalm 45:6,7
Genesis 1:1 – Elohim
Emmanuel
Matthew 1:23 – Immanuel, God with us
Son of God
In the expression, Son of God, the word "God" signifies one person, not a triune God, which agrees with the usage of the singular word "God" all through the Bible. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as one person, and not once as more than one person. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as a distinct individual from His son.
The Unipersonal God Spoke Through His Son
Son of God and Son of Man
John 5:18
The Jewish Leaders' "Cause" to Kill Jesus
I Am
“I am”
Creator
The "all" that the unipersonal God (Colossians 1:2,13-15) created by means of Jesus does not include the first born creature, since it is evident (1 Corinthians 15:27) that God is not created at all, and that Jesus was created before that "all" which was created through, by means of, him. -- Colossians 1:15,17.
http://jesus.rlbible.com/?tag=colossians-116
The all that came into being through Jesus in John 1:3 refers to the world of mankind, as described in John 1:10, and which Jesus refers to in John 17:5. Paul refers to this world in Romans 5:12, showing how it had become corrupted through sin. (see 2 Peter 1:4) Paul again refers to this world in Romans 8:19-22 and refers to this as "all creation" in verse 22. This "all creation", however, does not include the angels, for the angels who see the face of God (Matthew 18:10) have not been subjected to futility. -- Ecclesiastes 1:2,13-15.
http://jesus.rlbible.com/?tag=john-13
Yes, there is only one being in the universe so has not been created. The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, identifies that one being as one person, and never as more than one person. Nevertheless, while it may be that the thought of self-existence is included in Ehyeh (I am, I will be) and Yahweh (He is, He will be), I believe that the Holy Name declares that the Creator is and will be Who He is, that is, He is and will who He is and thus does not deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13); His word is trustworthy. -- Isaiah 55:11; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18.
Focus on the Holy Name
Originally posted 11/13/2010; Updated 11/15/2013
My Trinity Question
I am not here addressing what is stated there in detail, but mostly giving links to where I have discussed the points before. Please note that I am not just addressing what is present in the original post, but rather what is presented in the comments.
Preliminary:
Jesus is Not Yahweh
The God (Supreme Being – The Might) of Jesus (Scriptures)
Who is Jesus?
John 1:1
John 1:1 proves that Jesus was deity (mighty) with (or towards) the only true Might of the universe (John 1:1,3,5), the source of all might; it does not prove that Jesus is in the only might of the universe.
If Jesus is the Might whom he is with, then Jesus is the Father, for Jesus identified whom he was with in John 17:1,3,5. Jesus was with the only true God, thus, the default is that Jesus is not the only true God whom he was with. Even most trinitarians say that the first theos in John 1:1 is not being used in the same manner as the second theos, for they use their imagination and form the assumption that the first theos is not speaking of three persons, but rather of one of the alleged persons of their triune God, while the second theos does not speak of the three persons, but the alleged second person of their triune God. Nevertheless, it is obvious that the second theos is not used in the same manner as the first theos. In the text John emphasizes the difference between his usage of theos by repeating that the Logos was with God, thus indicating that the Logos was NOT "God" whom he was with, and that "god" applied to the Logos means something different than expressing "the only true God" (John 17:5).
There is Only One True God
The Logos of God
What Beginning?
John 1:1 and Trinitarian Assumptions
The Logos was Theos
John 1:1 - In the Beginning
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for “God”
If Jesus is the Might whom he is with, then Jesus is the Father, for Jesus identified whom he was with in John 17:1,3,5. Jesus was with the only true God, thus, the default is that Jesus is not the only true God whom he was with. Even most trinitarian say that the first theos is not being used in the same manner as the second theos, for they use their imagination and form the assumption that the first theos is not speaking of three persons, but rather of one of the alleged persons of their triune God, while the second theos does not speak of the three persons, but the alleged second persons of their triune God. Yes, it is obvious that the second theos is not used in the same manner as the first theos. In the text John emphasizes the difference between his usage of theos by repeating that the Logos was with God.
http://jesus.rlbible.com/>=tag=john-11
Romans 9:5
See:
Who is Over All
2 Corinthians 3:17
Yahweh, the Spirit
1 Timothy 6:15,16
The Only Ruler Who Possesses Immortality
ELOHIM
Elohim – Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?
Genesis 1:26 – Let Us and Elohim
Hebrews 1:8 – Why is Jesus called “Elohim” and “Theos”? Psalm 45:6,7
Genesis 1:1 – Elohim
Emmanuel
Matthew 1:23 – Immanuel, God with us
Son of God
In the expression, Son of God, the word "God" signifies one person, not a triune God, which agrees with the usage of the singular word "God" all through the Bible. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as one person, and not once as more than one person. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as a distinct individual from His son.
The Unipersonal God Spoke Through His Son
Son of God and Son of Man
John 5:18
The Jewish Leaders' "Cause" to Kill Jesus
I Am
“I am”
Creator
The "all" that the unipersonal God (Colossians 1:2,13-15) created by means of Jesus does not include the first born creature, since it is evident (1 Corinthians 15:27) that God is not created at all, and that Jesus was created before that "all" which was created through, by means of, him. -- Colossians 1:15,17.
http://jesus.rlbible.com/?tag=colossians-116
The all that came into being through Jesus in John 1:3 refers to the world of mankind, as described in John 1:10, and which Jesus refers to in John 17:5. Paul refers to this world in Romans 5:12, showing how it had become corrupted through sin. (see 2 Peter 1:4) Paul again refers to this world in Romans 8:19-22 and refers to this as "all creation" in verse 22. This "all creation", however, does not include the angels, for the angels who see the face of God (Matthew 18:10) have not been subjected to futility. -- Ecclesiastes 1:2,13-15.
http://jesus.rlbible.com/?tag=john-13
Yes, there is only one being in the universe so has not been created. The Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, identifies that one being as one person, and never as more than one person. Nevertheless, while it may be that the thought of self-existence is included in Ehyeh (I am, I will be) and Yahweh (He is, He will be), I believe that the Holy Name declares that the Creator is and will be Who He is, that is, He is and will who He is and thus does not deny Himself (2 Timothy 2:13); His word is trustworthy. -- Isaiah 55:11; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18.
Focus on the Holy Name
Originally posted 11/13/2010; Updated 11/15/2013
Deuteronomy 6:4 - Elohim and Echad
This is in response to the post entitled:
The Big Bang Theory, The Yankees vs the Tigers, and How can 3=1?
(1) ELOHIM does not ALWAYS refer to a singular God. Nor does its plural usage mean persons or parts of one God, but rather it designates more than one God, that is, "gods", as in Genesis 31:30; 35:2; Exodus 12:12; 15:11; 18:11; 20:3,23; 22:28; 23:13,24,32,33; 32:1,4,8,23,31; 34:15,16,17; Psalm 82:6, and many, many, other scriptures.
(2) ELOHIM as applied to Jehovah (Yahweh) is used as a plural intensive, that is, with an emphatic singular meaning. Some call this the majestic plural, or emphatic plural, etc. Whatever the usage may be called, it still designates a singular, but intensified or magnified, meaning to a plural form of a word. The usage never designates more than one person or individual as combined in one being.
(3) There are no plural verbs or adjectives in Deuteronomy 6:4 that attend the word "ELOHIM", not unless one refers to the word "our", which reflects the plurality of the people of Israel, not ELOHIM. In verse 3, the Hebrew form (Strong's Hebrew #1696) for "speak, commanded, promised" is singular, "he spoke, commanded, promised", not they spoke, commanded or promised.
See:
Elohim – Does This Word Indicate a Plurality of Persons in a Godhead?
Let Us and Elohim
Why is Jesus called “Elohim” and “Theos”?
One God, One Lord
Hebraic Usage of the Titles for "God"
and
Elohim Created
(4) The application of "compound unity" to the alleged triune God dogma would mean that the Father is NOT GOD, but a part of God; it would mean that the Son is NOT GOD, but a part of God, and that Holy Spirit is NOT GOD, but a part of God. In a compound unity, the various parts do not equal the whole. A grape in one cluster IS NOT THE CLUSTER, but only a small part of the cluster. A grape alone would not be the cluster. Likewise, to apply compound unity to the alleged trinue God would not fit the trinitarian definition of the trinity.
See:
The Meaning of Echad
**
In reality, the Bible no where ever mentions a triune God, not even once. From Genesis to Revelation, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is ALWAYS presented as one individual, one person, and never once is He presented as more than one person or individual. Any such idea as a triune God has to imagined with the spirit of human imagination, assumptions have to be formed beyond what is written, and then what is imagined and assumed has to be added to, and read into, any and every scripture that is thought to teach trinity.
On top of that, the trinity dogma would negate the role of Jesus as the one who condemned sin the flesh. -- Romans 8:3.
See:
How God's Son Condemned Sin in the Flesh
**
In respects the trinitarian teaching that Jesus is still a human being of flesh, this denies the very basis of redemption in the sacrifice of Jesus, for it would mean that either Jesus never completed his offering of himself in sacrifice to his God, or that he took that offering back -- either way it denies the reason that Jesus became flesh.
See:
Jesus Has Come in the Flesh
Jesus Died as a Human Being - Raised As a Spirit Being
Did Jesus Need to be Uncreated to Pay the Price for Sin?
*******
Related:
E.LO.HIM' -- Many Gods in One God? - Chapter 10 of the book, Should Christianity Abandon the Doctrine of the Trinity?
Originally posted: November 18, 2012; Updated: November 15, 2013.
Sunday, May 20, 2012
Three-Headed Trinity?
Trinitarians often claim that trinitarians do not believe in a "three-headed trinity". While it may be true that most trinitarians would not think of the trinity in those terms, yet, in history, many trinitarian artists did depict the alleged triune God with three heads. I am providing some links below that confirm this:
(1) Abraham and the Trinity, (c.1270-80) inserted at the front of a fourteenth-century Psalter (English). It is claimed that this is a "Biblical" illustration, although the Bible itself never once presents the God of Abraham as being three persons. Indeed, the Bible only presents the God of Abraham as being one individual or person. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-20; Acts 3:13-26.
(2) The Three Headed Trinity, (c1260) Salisbury Cathedral.
(3) Three-Faced Trinity, (c1750-70), Peru (Canvas painting)
(4) Trinity_by_Jeronimo_Cosida (c1570) From Cistercian Monastery of Tulebras, Navarra, Spain.
(5) Three-Faced Trinity (unidentified)
If anyone knows of more, please leave a comment below.
Evidently, there have been trinitarian artists who interpreted the idea of "three persons in the Godhead" to mean three persons, three heads, that make up the trinitarian idea of the Godhead.
(1) Abraham and the Trinity, (c.1270-80) inserted at the front of a fourteenth-century Psalter (English). It is claimed that this is a "Biblical" illustration, although the Bible itself never once presents the God of Abraham as being three persons. Indeed, the Bible only presents the God of Abraham as being one individual or person. -- Exodus 3:14,15; Deuteronomy 18:15-20; Acts 3:13-26.
(2) The Three Headed Trinity, (c1260) Salisbury Cathedral.
(3) Three-Faced Trinity, (c1750-70), Peru (Canvas painting)
(4) Trinity_by_Jeronimo_Cosida (c1570) From Cistercian Monastery of Tulebras, Navarra, Spain.
(5) Three-Faced Trinity (unidentified)
If anyone knows of more, please leave a comment below.
Evidently, there have been trinitarian artists who interpreted the idea of "three persons in the Godhead" to mean three persons, three heads, that make up the trinitarian idea of the Godhead.
Friday, October 14, 2011
Isaiah 9:6 - He Doth Call His Name
For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. -- Isaiah 9:6, Young's Literal Translation.
As given in Young's translation, it shows that the titles are anarthrous, without the definite article "the" before each title. Of course, the capitalization of these "titles" are also added be the translators. In the Hebrew, the phrase rendered "Mighty God" is usually transliterated as "EL GIBBOR".
If "mighty God" should be understood as being a title of Jesus in this verse, we should note how such a title would apply to one who is not Yahweh, rather than to assume that Jesus is here being referred to as Yahweh. Since it is Yahweh, the only true God who, in context (Isaiah 9:7), is performing these things, the default assumption should be that child being given by Yahweh is not Yahweh. The scriptures present to us the fact that it is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who anoints the Messiah -- thus making the one sent by Yahweh into the Messiah. (Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 10:38) Again, the default reasoning should be that Yahweh is not the Messiah who was sent by Yahweh.
But, how could the title "mighty god" be applied to the Messiah, if the Messiah is not Yahweh? What many do not realize is that there is a Hebraic usage of the words that are often rendered as "God" wherein the words are used in more general sense of "might", "strength", or "power." Form of the word "EL", as can be seen by consulting any good Hebrew concordance, is often translated by various words of general designation of might, power, etc. Such a usage is shown in the King James rendering of the same phrase (EL GIBBOR, only in a plural form) in Ezekiel 32:21. We do not know of any translation that renders the expression in Ezekiel 32:21 as "Mighty Gods", but it usually rendered similar to the King James Version, which renders it as "The strong (a form of the Hebrew EL) among the mighty (a form of the Hebrew Gibbor)." Thus, in Isaiah 9:6, if this expression as "mighty god" is assumed to be a title for the Messiah, the anointed of Yahweh, who, by default, should be assumed to therefore not be Yahweh, then it should also be understood as in Ezekiel 32:21, "a strong one among the mighty." Jesus is indeed a strong one among the mighty, but he is not his Supreme Being.
Likewise, if the title "everlasting father," is to be understood as being applied to the Messiah, it should be understood in light of what Messiah became after his resurrection, the "last Adam," who "became the life-giving spirit," who, in effect, is takes Adam's place as the life-giver to the world. Unlike Adam, who disobeyed and became father only to a dying race (1 Corinthians 15:21,22), Jesus becomes father forever, thus "everlasting father."
However, the prophecy of Isaiah 9:6 depicts a singular name; it does not depict a series of names or titles as is given by most translations of this verse. That singular name is usually transliterated as Pelejoezelgibborabiaadarshalom. Often such a "name" given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and the application of such a name does not designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. Thus, for instance, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel, which could be read as a series of titles: God, The God, Israel, we realize that this is not what Jacob meant by this. Rather, we understand that he was not saying that the altar was "God," or that the altar was "the God," nor that the altar was Israel, but rather that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob's (Israel's) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: "God is the God of Israel," or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: "Poweful is the God of Israel." Likewise in Isaiah 9:6, since it is directly stated in the singular as a name, not plural, as "names", we believe it more correctly to be understood as describing Yahweh, not the Messiah who comes in the name of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: "Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the God and Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.
Nevertheless, as I have shown above, even if Isaiah 9:6 should be viewed as a series of titles describing the Messiah himself, it still does not mean that Jesus is Yahweh who sent Jesus. There is definitely nothing in the verse about three persons in one God, the trinity.
Related Studies That I Have Posted Elsewhere:
The Singular Name of the Son Given
The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father
Studies by Other Bible Students
Pastor C T Russell Discusses The Day - C.T. Russell
The Story of Jesus - C.T. Russell
Mighty God, Everlasting Father - C.T. Russell
The Mighty God - Mark Tribble
Unto Us a Child is Born - Robert Seklemian
Wonderful Counselor - David Stein
The Prince of Peace - Mark Grillo
Material Written By Others
Why Is Jesus Called "Mighty God" at Isaiah 9:6?
The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father
Studies by Other Bible Students
Pastor C T Russell Discusses The Day - C.T. Russell
The Story of Jesus - C.T. Russell
Mighty God, Everlasting Father - C.T. Russell
The Mighty God - Mark Tribble
Unto Us a Child is Born - Robert Seklemian
Wonderful Counselor - David Stein
The Prince of Peace - Mark Grillo
Material Written By Others
Why Is Jesus Called "Mighty God" at Isaiah 9:6?
Tuesday, July 5, 2011
No Savior Besides Jehovah
(God's Holy Name is presented as "Jehovah," regardless of translation used.)
- Isaiah 43:11 -- WEB
I, even I, am [Jehovah]; and besides [Bil`adey, apart from, except, without] me there is no savior.
- Isaiah 45:21 -- WEB
Declare you, and bring [it] forth; yes, let them take counsel together: who has shown this from ancient time? who has declared it of old? Haven't I, [Jehovah]? and there is no God else besides [Bil`adey, apart from, except, without] me, a just God and a Savior; there is no one besides me.
- Hosea 13:4 -- WEB
"Yet I am [Jehovah] your God from the land of Egypt; And you will know no god but me, And besides [Biltiy, excepting] me there is no savior.
(1) Although there are hints related to in the context of some of the prophecies of the coming salvation by means of Jesus, Jehovah is not directly speaking of himself as being the savior of the world, but directly as the deliverer of Judah and Israel. -- Isaiah 43:1,3,12; 45:4,5,11,15,25; Hosea 13:1,2,4
(2) Jehovah is speaking of himself as compared to the false would-be saviors (idol-gods, kings, etc.) of the heathen nations, or even their own kings (Isaiah 43:9; 45:21; Hosea 13:1,2,10) that the Israelites seemed to be constantly going to for deliverance, as apart from Jehovah.
(3) The Hebrew words for besides means "except, without, etc.," and does preclude the thought that Jehovah could send another who is not Himself as savior of Israel. Indeed, Jehovah sent many saviors to Israel, all of which were not apart from, or in exception of, Jehovah, but were in accord with Jehovah. Saviors sent by Jehovah are not “apart from” Jehovah, nor are they “without” Jehovah. Nevertheless, by their being sent by Jehovah and coming in his name signifies that Jehovah is still the only ultimate savior, thus it could still be said that there is no savior besides (without, apart from) him. -- Judges 2:18; 3:9-15; 1 Samuel 12:10,11; Nehemiah 9:27; 2 Kings 13:5; 14:27.
(4) There is no savior apart from Jehovah, but being the savior, He does appoint others as saviors -- not that they apart from Jehovah, bur rather that Jehovah is with them. Likewise, this same manner he sent his son as savior of the world. However, this does not deny that besides, or apart from, Jehovah there is no savior, since Jehovah is the one who is the ultimate source of the salvation he provides by means of such saviors, including his Son. Jehovah's son is not besides, aside from, Jehovah, since Jehovah, the God of Jesus, sent him. (Isaiah 61:1,2; Micah 5:4) It is as Samson stated to Jehovah: “You have given this great deliverance [salvation] by the hand of your servant.” (Judges 15:18) And Jehovah spoke of David: “By the hand of my servant David I will save my people Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.” (2 Samuel 3:18) And Psalmist said: “You led your people like a flock, By the hand of Moses and Aaron.” (Psalm 77:20) Thus, God sent Jesus that “the world should be saved through him” (John 3:16,17) so that “the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23) In Romans 6:23, the word "God" signifies one person, not three. Rather than being apart from the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, we read that "God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him." (Acts 10:38; See Isaiah 61:1) In Acts 10:38, the word "God" signifies one person, not three. The salvation from God by means of Jesus is not apart from Jehovah, for Jehovah is the one who has provided the salvation through Jesus. "All things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ." (2 Corinthians 5:18) "God" in 2 Corinthians 5:18 refers to one person, not three persons, and that one person is held as distinct from "Jesus Christ (meaning anointed one, the one anointed by Jehovah, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- Exodus 3:14,15; Isaiah 61:1)."
Monday, February 1, 2010
John 10:30 - Jesus and His Father are One
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Jesus is one with his God and Father. -- John 10:30.
Many wish to imagine that when Jesus said that he was one his God and Father, that he meant that he and his Father are one God, or one being. In reality, there is nothing in what Jesus said that indicates that he was saying that he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One has to use the spirit of human imagination to make the scripture mean such. There is certainly nothing in the scripture that gives any indication that Jesus was saying that he was a person of a triune God.
Jesus prays for his followers to be one, just as he is with his God and Father. -- John 17:11.
Jesus prays that his followers may all be one, just as he is one with his God and Father. -- John 17:21.
Jesus prays that his followers may be one in himself and his Father, just as he is with his God and Father. -- John 17:21.
Jesus prays that his followers may one, just as he is one with his God and Father. -- John 17:22.
Nothing in any of this means that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who sent Jesus.
The Greek word for the adjective "one" is hen [which is neuter], not mia [feminine], as in the trinitarian formula: treis hypostaseis en mia ousia (three persons in one being). Notice that ousia is feminine, and thus the Greek calls for the feminine form of the word for one, that is, mia. Nor is it speaking of "one God", for then Jesus would have used the word heis (masculine) in order to match the Greek word for God (which is masculine), as Paul does in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Likewise, if Jesus meant that he and his Father were one Father, then he would have used the masculine heis, since the Greek word 'AB is masculine. His choice of the Greek neuter indicates that he is using the adjective "one" to describe a relationship that is defined by a Greek neuter word. More than likely, in view of the way Jesus uses same word in connection with his and his father's relationship to the followers of Jesus, Jesus is referring a union that reflects his being in agreement with his God and Father, as perhaps "one mind", as in Revelation 17:13, or one spirit (as disposition), as Philippians 1:27.
Jesus is one with his God and Father. -- John 10:30.
Many wish to imagine that when Jesus said that he was one his God and Father, that he meant that he and his Father are one God, or one being. In reality, there is nothing in what Jesus said that indicates that he was saying that he was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One has to use the spirit of human imagination to make the scripture mean such. There is certainly nothing in the scripture that gives any indication that Jesus was saying that he was a person of a triune God.
Jesus prays for his followers to be one, just as he is with his God and Father. -- John 17:11.
Jesus prays that his followers may all be one, just as he is one with his God and Father. -- John 17:21.
Jesus prays that his followers may be one in himself and his Father, just as he is with his God and Father. -- John 17:21.
Jesus prays that his followers may one, just as he is one with his God and Father. -- John 17:22.
Nothing in any of this means that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who sent Jesus.
The Greek word for the adjective "one" is hen [which is neuter], not mia [feminine], as in the trinitarian formula: treis hypostaseis en mia ousia (three persons in one being). Notice that ousia is feminine, and thus the Greek calls for the feminine form of the word for one, that is, mia. Nor is it speaking of "one God", for then Jesus would have used the word heis (masculine) in order to match the Greek word for God (which is masculine), as Paul does in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Likewise, if Jesus meant that he and his Father were one Father, then he would have used the masculine heis, since the Greek word 'AB is masculine. His choice of the Greek neuter indicates that he is using the adjective "one" to describe a relationship that is defined by a Greek neuter word. More than likely, in view of the way Jesus uses same word in connection with his and his father's relationship to the followers of Jesus, Jesus is referring a union that reflects his being in agreement with his God and Father, as perhaps "one mind", as in Revelation 17:13, or one spirit (as disposition), as Philippians 1:27.
See also:
and
Saturday, January 2, 2010
Genesis 1:1,26 - God Speaks to His Son
Genesis 1:1- In the beginning GOD created...
Genesis 1:26- Let US make man in OUR image...
For more on this see the following:
"Let us" and Elohim
Who is God Speaking To?
Genesis 1:26- Let US make man in OUR image...
There is nothing in this verse (or any other verse in the entire Bible) that identifies Jesus as "God."
The Word "God" (ELOHIM) is speaking of only one person in Genesis 1:1, not three persons. Trinitarians claim that God's spirit is the third person of their triune God, but ELOHIM in verse 2, even from the trinitarian standpoint, has to refer to one person since the spirit is spoken of in that verse as belonging to ELOHIM.
In Genesis 1:26, the unipersonal God (elohim) speaks to another person who is not himself, saying "Let us..." or "Let's". If I say to a friend, "Let's go to a movie as we had planned," I am not saying that the person I am speaking to is another person of myself.
The truth is that the idea that God is here speaking to Himself (allegedly as two different persons of Himself) has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what the scripture actually says, and such has to be assumed only to conform to preconceived doctrine, which also has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is used to allegedly support the extra-Biblical doctrine.
The Word "God" (ELOHIM) is speaking of only one person in Genesis 1:1, not three persons. Trinitarians claim that God's spirit is the third person of their triune God, but ELOHIM in verse 2, even from the trinitarian standpoint, has to refer to one person since the spirit is spoken of in that verse as belonging to ELOHIM.
In Genesis 1:26, the unipersonal God (elohim) speaks to another person who is not himself, saying "Let us..." or "Let's". If I say to a friend, "Let's go to a movie as we had planned," I am not saying that the person I am speaking to is another person of myself.
The truth is that the idea that God is here speaking to Himself (allegedly as two different persons of Himself) has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into what the scripture actually says, and such has to be assumed only to conform to preconceived doctrine, which also has to be imagined, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is used to allegedly support the extra-Biblical doctrine.
For more on this see the following:
"Let us" and Elohim
Who is God Speaking To?
Friday, December 11, 2009
Is Jesus the God of the Old Testament? -r
Being moved to: http://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2017/04/god-ot.html
This is in response to a site that claims that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament; since we have discussed most of the scriptures individually elsewhere, for most scriptures we are simply providing links to the discussion.
Unless stated otherwise, the World English version of the Bible is used throughout, with forms of the holy name supplied at appropriate places.
We first wish to state that there is not one scripture in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that says that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One has to imagine, assume, add to and read that thought into, any scripture that is presented to allegedly "prove" that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No where is the glory that only belongs to the Most High ever attributed to the son of the Most High. -- Isaiah 42:8; Luke 1:32.
The God of the Old Testament identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He identified Himself by the name EHYEH (often rendered as "I am")/Yahweh (Jehovah).
Exodus 3:6 - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."
Exodus 3:13 - Moses said to God, "Behold, when I come to the children of Israel, and tell them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you;' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' What should I tell them?"
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "[EHYEH ASHER EHYEH]," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: "[EHYEH] has sent me to you."
Exodus 3:15 God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'YAHWEH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.
EHYEH and YAHWEH are two different forms of the one holy name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Bible nevers speaks of more than one holy name of God.
See:
Jesus is Not Yahweh (Jehovah)
The Unipersonal God of Jesus
Jesus called the God of the Old Testament, "My God." In doing so, he speaks of the God of the Old Testament as one person, not three persons.
Matthew 27:46 -- About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" That is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Mark 15:34 -- At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is, being interpreted, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
John 20:17 -- Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
Revelation 3:12 -- He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
In foretelling the Messiah sent by Yahweh, Micah 5:4 refers to Yahweh as "his God."
Micah 5:4 - He shall stand, and shall shepherd in the strength of Yahweh, In the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God: And they will live, for then he will be great to the ends of the earth.
In speaking to the Son of the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to as "your God."
Psalms 45:7 -- You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Hebrews 1:8,9 -- of the Son he says... You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=367
Hebrews 1:1,2 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, and says that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob speaks to us through His son.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=772
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to in the New Testament unipersonally as the God and Father of Jesus. -- Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 2 Peter 1:3.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=263
Acts 3:13-26 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a unipersonal God, who has raised Jesus up as the prophet like Moses (as foretold in Deuteronomy 18:15-19), and who has raised Jesus up from death.
Revelation 1:1,4,5 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person (not three), who gave the Revelation to Jesus (another person who is not God who gave the Revelation to him.)
Revelation 1:8 quotes the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus (Revelation 1:1,2), the one whom Jesus refers to unipersonally as "my God" in Revelation 3:12.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=66
In many translations, in Revelation 1:6 "God" -- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who speaks through his Son, is referred to unipersonally as the God of Jesus.
He made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. -- Revelation 1:6
It is the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus and who is being quoted in Revelation 1:8.
Revelation 1:17,18 and Revelation 2:8 speaks of Jesus as the first and the last firstborn of the dead. "First and Last" certainly does not mean the Most High, not unless you believe the Most High was dead, and needed to made alive.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=911
Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13 both refer to the unipersonal God spoken of in Revelation 1:1,2.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=325
Matthew 28:18 shows that Jesus is not the Almighty, since the power spoken of given to him; the Almighty does not need anyone to give to him power, since he already is the source of all might in the universe. If Jesus as some point was given the power of being the Almighty, this would also mean that at some time Jesus was not the Almighty. Additionally, Paul states that it is evident that the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
See our study on "All Power."
Likewise, in John 17:2, Jesus does not claim this authority as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but this authority is given to him by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. John 17:1,3 shows that Jesus believed that his Father is unipersonally "the only true God." Nor does the authority given by the only true God to Jesus mean that Jesus, by receiving this authority from only true God became the only true God due to having receiving this authority; this would mean that before Jesus was not the only true God until he received the authority from the only true God; of course, in reality none of this means at all that the authority that Jesus received from the only true God means that Jesus is the Most High, the Almighty, or the only true God.
In Acts 10:36, the one being referred to as the "Lord of all" probably is "God" who is being spoken of as doing these things by means of Jesus the Anointed One. (Acts 2:34-36) "God" is being used unipersonally of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as can be seen by Acts 10:38, where it says "God anotinted him [Jesus] with the Holy Spirit and with power." Isaiah 61:1 has the Anointed One saying: "Yahweh has anointed me." Acts 2:36 speaks of this God unipersonally saying "God made him [Jesus] both Lord and Christ [Anointed One]." Thus, even if Jesus is spoken of as "Lord of all" in Acts 10:36, Jesus is such because the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made him both Lord and Christ (Anointed One). Again, it is evident that in anointing Jesus, the glory that only belongs to the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
See our study: "Lord of All"
Ephesians 1:20-22 - See our study "Far Above All Rule, Authority, Power"
In Philippians 2:9, Paul again identifies the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, saying "God also exalted him (Jesus)." "God" here refers to one person; Jesus is not spoken of as the Most High, since Jesus is the one that as being spoken of being exalted by the Most High, and it is evident that Jesus is not being included in "God" who exalted Jesus. Thus, rather than claiming that Jesus is the Almighty Yahweh, Paul shows that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Likewise, the Most High does not need another to give him a name, an office, as the Most High, for he, by nature of his being the Most High, is the Most High innate. On the other hand, Jesus is given a name, that is an office, that above every name. Again, it is evident that the name of the Most High is excluded, since it is the Most High is the One who is given this "name" to Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:27) Thus, Philippians 2:9,10 shows that Jesus is not the Most High, the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Philippians 9:11 shows that all homage given to Jesus is is to the glory of the unipersonal God (spoken of in Philippians 2:9), the Father of Jesus.
See our study: "Humility of Mind"
Daniel 7:13,14 - I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
There is absolutely nothing here that indicates that the one "like a son of man" is the Almighty. And like the other scriptures, if what is said here means that Jesus is the Almighty, then it would mean that he was not the Almighty until the dominion was given to him from unknown source who would evidently need to be greater than the Almighty. In reality, since this dominion is given to Jesus by another, then this scripture actually proves that Jesus is not the Almighty.
Neither in the Old Testament or the New Testament do we find anything that reveals Jesus as the God of the Old Testament; that idea does indeed have to imagined beyond what is written, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to allegedly prove that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh).
For study on the following scriptures, links are provided to show that the scriptures presented offer no proof of the trinity, or that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.
Matthew 28:19
The Baptismal Name
2 Corinthians 13:14
The Three Be With You
1 Peter 1:2
See the study: "Peter Presents the Trinity?" -- Click Here to search the RL site for 1 Peter 1:2.
Deuteronomy 32:6
See the study: "Click Here to search the RL site for Deuteronomy 32:6.
Isaiah 63:16
See the study: "You are Our Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 63:16
Isaiah 64:8
See the study: "The Potter, Father of Israel -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 64:8.
Malachi 1:6
See the study: A Son Honors His Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Malachi 1:6.
Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18
See the study: The Spirit of Yahweh on the Anointed One -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 61:1.
2 Corinthians 3:17
See the study: Yahweh, the Spirit
Revelation 1:4 -- Is Jesus called "who is and who was and who is to come?
See the study: Who Is, Was, To Come - Jesus?
Revelation 11:17 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 15:3 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 16:7 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 16:14 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 19:6 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 19:15 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 21:22 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 1:8 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 22:17 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
See our study: Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last
For an examination of scriptures that are presented from the various books of the Bible, click on the name of the books below (not all links are ready yet; additionally, more scriptures are still being added to the results):
Genesis * Exodus * Deuteronomy * Judges * Psalms * Ecclesiastes * Isaiah * Jeremiah * Ezekiel * Daniel * Hosea * Micah * Malachi * Matthew * Mark * Luke * John * Acts * Romans * 1 Corinthians * 2 Corinthians * Galatians * Ephesians * Philippians * Colossians * 1 Thessalonians * 2 Thessalonians * 1 Timothy * 2 Timothy * Titus * Philemon * Hebrews * 1 Peter * 2 Peter * 1 John * 2 John * 3 John * Jude * Revelation
This is in response to a site that claims that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament; since we have discussed most of the scriptures individually elsewhere, for most scriptures we are simply providing links to the discussion.
Unless stated otherwise, the World English version of the Bible is used throughout, with forms of the holy name supplied at appropriate places.
We first wish to state that there is not one scripture in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that says that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. One has to imagine, assume, add to and read that thought into, any scripture that is presented to allegedly "prove" that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. No where is the glory that only belongs to the Most High ever attributed to the son of the Most High. -- Isaiah 42:8; Luke 1:32.
The God of the Old Testament identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He identified Himself by the name EHYEH (often rendered as "I am")/Yahweh (Jehovah).
Exodus 3:6 - "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."
Exodus 3:13 - Moses said to God, "Behold, when I come to the children of Israel, and tell them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you;' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' What should I tell them?"
Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses, "[EHYEH ASHER EHYEH]," and he said, "You shall tell the children of Israel this: "[EHYEH] has sent me to you."
Exodus 3:15 God said moreover to Moses, "You shall tell the children of Israel this, 'YAHWEH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, and this is my memorial to all generations.
EHYEH and YAHWEH are two different forms of the one holy name of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Bible nevers speaks of more than one holy name of God.
See:
Jesus is Not Yahweh (Jehovah)
The Unipersonal God of Jesus
Jesus called the God of the Old Testament, "My God." In doing so, he speaks of the God of the Old Testament as one person, not three persons.
Matthew 27:46 -- About the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" That is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Mark 15:34 -- At the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is, being interpreted, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
John 20:17 -- Jesus said to her, "Don't touch me, for I haven't yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brothers, and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.'"
Revelation 3:12 -- He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.
In foretelling the Messiah sent by Yahweh, Micah 5:4 refers to Yahweh as "his God."
Micah 5:4 - He shall stand, and shall shepherd in the strength of Yahweh, In the majesty of the name of Yahweh his God: And they will live, for then he will be great to the ends of the earth.
In speaking to the Son of the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to as "your God."
Psalms 45:7 -- You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows.
Hebrews 1:8,9 -- of the Son he says... You have loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, your God, has anointed you With the oil of gladness above your fellows.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=367
Hebrews 1:1,2 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, and says that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob speaks to us through His son.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=772
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is referred to in the New Testament unipersonally as the God and Father of Jesus. -- Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; 2 Peter 1:3.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=263
Acts 3:13-26 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as a unipersonal God, who has raised Jesus up as the prophet like Moses (as foretold in Deuteronomy 18:15-19), and who has raised Jesus up from death.
Revelation 1:1,4,5 presents the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person (not three), who gave the Revelation to Jesus (another person who is not God who gave the Revelation to him.)
Revelation 1:8 quotes the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus (Revelation 1:1,2), the one whom Jesus refers to unipersonally as "my God" in Revelation 3:12.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=66
In many translations, in Revelation 1:6 "God" -- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who speaks through his Son, is referred to unipersonally as the God of Jesus.
He made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. -- Revelation 1:6
It is the unipersonal God who gave the Revelation to Jesus and who is being quoted in Revelation 1:8.
Revelation 1:17,18 and Revelation 2:8 speaks of Jesus as the first and the last firstborn of the dead. "First and Last" certainly does not mean the Most High, not unless you believe the Most High was dead, and needed to made alive.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=911
Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13 both refer to the unipersonal God spoken of in Revelation 1:1,2.
See also:
http://godandson.reslight.net/?p=325
Matthew 28:18 shows that Jesus is not the Almighty, since the power spoken of given to him; the Almighty does not need anyone to give to him power, since he already is the source of all might in the universe. If Jesus as some point was given the power of being the Almighty, this would also mean that at some time Jesus was not the Almighty. Additionally, Paul states that it is evident that the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
See our study on "All Power."
Likewise, in John 17:2, Jesus does not claim this authority as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but this authority is given to him by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. John 17:1,3 shows that Jesus believed that his Father is unipersonally "the only true God." Nor does the authority given by the only true God to Jesus mean that Jesus, by receiving this authority from only true God became the only true God due to having receiving this authority; this would mean that before Jesus was not the only true God until he received the authority from the only true God; of course, in reality none of this means at all that the authority that Jesus received from the only true God means that Jesus is the Most High, the Almighty, or the only true God.
In Acts 10:36, the one being referred to as the "Lord of all" probably is "God" who is being spoken of as doing these things by means of Jesus the Anointed One. (Acts 2:34-36) "God" is being used unipersonally of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as can be seen by Acts 10:38, where it says "God anotinted him [Jesus] with the Holy Spirit and with power." Isaiah 61:1 has the Anointed One saying: "Yahweh has anointed me." Acts 2:36 speaks of this God unipersonally saying "God made him [Jesus] both Lord and Christ [Anointed One]." Thus, even if Jesus is spoken of as "Lord of all" in Acts 10:36, Jesus is such because the unipersonal God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob made him both Lord and Christ (Anointed One). Again, it is evident that in anointing Jesus, the glory that only belongs to the Most High is excluded. -- 1 Corinthians 15:27.
See our study: "Lord of All"
Ephesians 1:20-22 - See our study "Far Above All Rule, Authority, Power"
In Philippians 2:9, Paul again identifies the only Most High, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as one person, saying "God also exalted him (Jesus)." "God" here refers to one person; Jesus is not spoken of as the Most High, since Jesus is the one that as being spoken of being exalted by the Most High, and it is evident that Jesus is not being included in "God" who exalted Jesus. Thus, rather than claiming that Jesus is the Almighty Yahweh, Paul shows that Jesus is not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Likewise, the Most High does not need another to give him a name, an office, as the Most High, for he, by nature of his being the Most High, is the Most High innate. On the other hand, Jesus is given a name, that is an office, that above every name. Again, it is evident that the name of the Most High is excluded, since it is the Most High is the One who is given this "name" to Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:27) Thus, Philippians 2:9,10 shows that Jesus is not the Most High, the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Philippians 9:11 shows that all homage given to Jesus is is to the glory of the unipersonal God (spoken of in Philippians 2:9), the Father of Jesus.
See our study: "Humility of Mind"
Daniel 7:13,14 - I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. There was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
There is absolutely nothing here that indicates that the one "like a son of man" is the Almighty. And like the other scriptures, if what is said here means that Jesus is the Almighty, then it would mean that he was not the Almighty until the dominion was given to him from unknown source who would evidently need to be greater than the Almighty. In reality, since this dominion is given to Jesus by another, then this scripture actually proves that Jesus is not the Almighty.
Neither in the Old Testament or the New Testament do we find anything that reveals Jesus as the God of the Old Testament; that idea does indeed have to imagined beyond what is written, assumed, added to, and read into, each and every scripture that is presented to allegedly prove that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh).
For study on the following scriptures, links are provided to show that the scriptures presented offer no proof of the trinity, or that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.
Matthew 28:19
The Baptismal Name
2 Corinthians 13:14
The Three Be With You
1 Peter 1:2
See the study: "Peter Presents the Trinity?" -- Click Here to search the RL site for 1 Peter 1:2.
Deuteronomy 32:6
See the study: "Click Here to search the RL site for Deuteronomy 32:6.
Isaiah 63:16
See the study: "You are Our Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 63:16
Isaiah 64:8
See the study: "The Potter, Father of Israel -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 64:8.
Malachi 1:6
See the study: A Son Honors His Father -- Click Here to search the RL site for Malachi 1:6.
Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:18
See the study: The Spirit of Yahweh on the Anointed One -- Click Here to search the RL site for Isaiah 61:1.
2 Corinthians 3:17
See the study: Yahweh, the Spirit
Revelation 1:4 -- Is Jesus called "who is and who was and who is to come?
See the study: Who Is, Was, To Come - Jesus?
Revelation 11:17 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 15:3 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 16:7 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 16:14 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 19:6 -- Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 19:15 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 21:22 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 1:8 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Revelation 22:17 - Click Here to search the Restoration Light sites for more concerning this scripture.
Isaiah 41:4; 44:6; 48:12
See our study: Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last
For an examination of scriptures that are presented from the various books of the Bible, click on the name of the books below (not all links are ready yet; additionally, more scriptures are still being added to the results):
Genesis * Exodus * Deuteronomy * Judges * Psalms * Ecclesiastes * Isaiah * Jeremiah * Ezekiel * Daniel * Hosea * Micah * Malachi * Matthew * Mark * Luke * John * Acts * Romans * 1 Corinthians * 2 Corinthians * Galatians * Ephesians * Philippians * Colossians * 1 Thessalonians * 2 Thessalonians * 1 Timothy * 2 Timothy * Titus * Philemon * Hebrews * 1 Peter * 2 Peter * 1 John * 2 John * 3 John * Jude * Revelation
Tuesday, January 6, 2009
Isaiah 9:6 - His Name Shall Be Called
Isaiah 9:5 - For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; - Jewish Publication Society translation. (This is Isaiah 9:6 in most translations)
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.
Isaiah 9:6 is often referred to as proof that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). In reality, the idea has to be added to and read into what the prophecy states.
As we read it from the Jewish Publication Society's (JPS) rendering, we do not find any designation of Jesus as being "God". The JPS renders it via a transliteration of the "name." Most translations ignore that the verse is speaking a "name" (singular), and change the singular "name" to a series of names, with the evident design to make it appear that Jesus is being referrred to as "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father", so that the idea that Jesus is Yahweh can then be read into this. If one recognizes this, then one can see how this argument is circular, saying, in effect, because we believe that this name is not really a singular name as it says it is, but rather a series of names that are applied to the Messiah, then we believe that since Jesus is called "Mighty God", then Jesus is Yahweh.
In reality, Isaiah 9:7 shows that it is Yahweh who is giving this son to Israel. The Holy Scriptures reveal that Yahweh (Jehovah), the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is also the God of Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; Deuteronomy 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; John 5:30; John 6:38; John 17:1,3; John 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 3:2,12.
Yahweh (Jehovah), by means of his holy spirit, shows us through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures ever present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Mark 12:26; Luke 13:35; Luke 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; John 4:34; John 5:19,30,36,43; John 6:57; John 7:16,28; John 8:26,28,38; John 10:25; John 12:49,50; John 14:10; John 15:15; John 17:8,26; John 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; Acts 3:13,22; Acts 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; Colossians 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.
Usually, a singular name given to a person or thing is not given a translated meaning as a series of names, as has been done in Isaiah 9:6. The general trend is that a “name” such as this given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and by giving such a name to a human or thing is not understood to designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. For example, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel (Genesis 33:20), this could also be read as a series of "names", as most do in reading Isaiah 9:5, giving it the meaning: “God, The God, Israel.” Applying the same logic that most apply to Isaiah 9:6, we could then proclaim that this altar is God. In reality, such a "name" is meant to be understood as a sentence speaking of the God of Israel. Therefore, we should realize that he was not saying that the altar was “God,” or that the altar was “the God,” nor that the altar was Israel, but instead that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob’s (Israel’s) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: “God is the God of Israel,” or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: “Powerful is the God of Israel.”
So what about Isaiah 9:6? Likewise, the singular name should be understood as a sentence describing the God of Messiah rather than as a series of names that are applied to the Anointed of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.” From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the only Most High, Yahweh, the Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.
But let us suppose that the phrase "El Gibbor" (Mighty God) is actually applied to Messiah, rather than to One who makes/anoints the Messiah. Would this mean that Jesus is Yahweh his God, the God who anointed and made him the Christ, the Messiah? (Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38; Hebrews 1:9) Absolutely not! First, we should note that this name is not given to the Son of Yahweh until after he has been given by Yahweh to Israel. It has no application to Jesus in a pre-human existence.
In keeping with the rest of the scriptures, the application of the phrase "EL GIBBOR" to Messiah, usually rendered as "Mighty God", would only mean that the Anointed One is given power and might by the only true God. This usage is demonstrated by the King James Version rendering in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The expression "Mighty God" (el gibbor) is applicable to Jesus in a similar, but greater sense, as it was applicable to the Babylonish kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. In that verse, the phrase is not translated as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually translated as something like, "The strong among the mighty." (King James Version) Applying a similar rendering to Isaiah 9:6 would give us "strong one among the mighty", or, if it is to be rendered as a separate title, "mighty one of power." Jesus is indeed a mighty one of power, having been given all the plenitude of might bodily that he needs to carry out the purposes of his God and Father. (Colossians 2:9,10) Jesus, since his resurrection, has also become the "everlasting father," "the life-giving spirit," since it is through, by means of, him that the human race is regenerated / made alive. (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45) Those regenerated in this age are regenerated by tasting of the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5), receiving the holy spirit as an earnest, a down payment of that which is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14) None of this means that Jesus is his God and Father, the only true God who sent Jesus. -- John 17:1,3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3.
See also other places where this scripture is discussed:
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,405.0.html
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/
http://godandson.reslight.net/isaiah9-6.html
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,181.0.html
Written by others (I do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given):
Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"
Why is Jesus called "Mighty God" at Isa. 9:6?
This post is a partial response to:
http://onthisstone.blogspot.com/
CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board
Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be on his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this. -- World English Bible translation.
Isaiah 9:6 is often referred to as proof that Jesus is Yahweh (Jehovah). In reality, the idea has to be added to and read into what the prophecy states.
As we read it from the Jewish Publication Society's (JPS) rendering, we do not find any designation of Jesus as being "God". The JPS renders it via a transliteration of the "name." Most translations ignore that the verse is speaking a "name" (singular), and change the singular "name" to a series of names, with the evident design to make it appear that Jesus is being referrred to as "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father", so that the idea that Jesus is Yahweh can then be read into this. If one recognizes this, then one can see how this argument is circular, saying, in effect, because we believe that this name is not really a singular name as it says it is, but rather a series of names that are applied to the Messiah, then we believe that since Jesus is called "Mighty God", then Jesus is Yahweh.
In reality, Isaiah 9:7 shows that it is Yahweh who is giving this son to Israel. The Holy Scriptures reveal that Yahweh (Jehovah), the only true God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is also the God of Jesus. Jesus has One who is the Supreme Being over him; Jesus is not his Supreme Being whom he worships, prays to, and who sent him, and whose will he carried out in willful obedience. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 4:4 (Deuteronomy 8:3; Luke 4:4); Matthew 4:7 (Deuteronomy 6:16); Matthew 4:10 (Exodus 20:3-5; Exodus 34:14; Deuteronomy 6:13,14; Deuteronomy 10:20; Luke 4:8); Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6 (Genesis 1:27; Genesis 2:7,20-23); Mark 14:36; Mark 15:34; Luke 22:42; John 4:3; John 5:30; John 6:38; John 17:1,3; John 20:17; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17; Hebrews 1:9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; Revelation 3:2,12.
Yahweh (Jehovah), by means of his holy spirit, shows us through the scriptures that Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh, and was raised and glorified by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus never claimed to be, nor do the scriptures ever present Jesus as, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whom Jesus represents and speaks for. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 22:32; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Mark 12:26; Luke 13:35; Luke 20:37; John 3:2,17,32-35; John 4:34; John 5:19,30,36,43; John 6:57; John 7:16,28; John 8:26,28,38; John 10:25; John 12:49,50; John 14:10; John 15:15; John 17:8,26; John 20:17; Acts 2:22,34-36; Acts 3:13,22; Acts 5:30; Romans 15:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians 11:31; Colossians 1:3,15; Colossians 2:9-12; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 1:1.
Usually, a singular name given to a person or thing is not given a translated meaning as a series of names, as has been done in Isaiah 9:6. The general trend is that a “name” such as this given to a human or a thing is describing attributes of God/Yahweh, and by giving such a name to a human or thing is not understood to designate the human or thing as being God/Yahweh. For example, when Jacob called a certain altar by the name, El-Elohe-Israel (Genesis 33:20), this could also be read as a series of "names", as most do in reading Isaiah 9:5, giving it the meaning: “God, The God, Israel.” Applying the same logic that most apply to Isaiah 9:6, we could then proclaim that this altar is God. In reality, such a "name" is meant to be understood as a sentence speaking of the God of Israel. Therefore, we should realize that he was not saying that the altar was “God,” or that the altar was “the God,” nor that the altar was Israel, but instead that the name of the altar was meant to say something about Jacob’s (Israel’s) God. Thus, this name is usually given a meaning something like: “God is the God of Israel,” or probably more likely, the first EL should be understood with the general meaning of might, strength, power, etc., thus: “Powerful is the God of Israel.”
So what about Isaiah 9:6? Likewise, the singular name should be understood as a sentence describing the God of Messiah rather than as a series of names that are applied to the Anointed of Yahweh. Some editions of the JPS give this name the following meaning: “Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace.” From this perspective, this singular name that is given to Messiah would be describing the only Most High, Yahweh, the Father of Messiah, not the Messiah himself.
But let us suppose that the phrase "El Gibbor" (Mighty God) is actually applied to Messiah, rather than to One who makes/anoints the Messiah. Would this mean that Jesus is Yahweh his God, the God who anointed and made him the Christ, the Messiah? (Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36; 4:27; 10:38; Hebrews 1:9) Absolutely not! First, we should note that this name is not given to the Son of Yahweh until after he has been given by Yahweh to Israel. It has no application to Jesus in a pre-human existence.
In keeping with the rest of the scriptures, the application of the phrase "EL GIBBOR" to Messiah, usually rendered as "Mighty God", would only mean that the Anointed One is given power and might by the only true God. This usage is demonstrated by the King James Version rendering in the following verses: Genesis 23:6 (mighty); Genesis 30:8 (mighty); Genesis 31:29 (power); Deuteronomy 28:32 (might); 1 Samuel 14:15 (great); Nehemiah 5:5 (power); Psalm 8:5 (angels); Psalm 36:6 (great); Psalm 82:1 (mighty); Proverbs 3:27 (power); Psalm 29:1 (mighty); Ezekiel 32:21 (strong); Jonah 3:3 (exceeding). The expression "Mighty God" (el gibbor) is applicable to Jesus in a similar, but greater sense, as it was applicable to the Babylonish kings spoken of in Ezekiel 32:21, where the same expression in the plural is used. In that verse, the phrase is not translated as "Mighty Gods", but it is usually translated as something like, "The strong among the mighty." (King James Version) Applying a similar rendering to Isaiah 9:6 would give us "strong one among the mighty", or, if it is to be rendered as a separate title, "mighty one of power." Jesus is indeed a mighty one of power, having been given all the plenitude of might bodily that he needs to carry out the purposes of his God and Father. (Colossians 2:9,10) Jesus, since his resurrection, has also become the "everlasting father," "the life-giving spirit," since it is through, by means of, him that the human race is regenerated / made alive. (Matthew 19:28; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45) Those regenerated in this age are regenerated by tasting of the powers of the age to come (Hebrews 6:5), receiving the holy spirit as an earnest, a down payment of that which is to come. (2 Corinthians 1:21; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:14) None of this means that Jesus is his God and Father, the only true God who sent Jesus. -- John 17:1,3; 2 Corinthians 11:31; Ephesians 1:3.
See also other places where this scripture is discussed:
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,405.0.html
http://sonofyah.wordpress.com/2008/09/08/isaiah-967/
http://godandson.reslight.net/isaiah9-6.html
http://reslight.net/forum/index.php/topic,181.0.html
Written by others (I do not necessarily agree with all conclusions given):
Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"
Why is Jesus called "Mighty God" at Isa. 9:6?
This post is a partial response to:
http://onthisstone.blogspot.com/
CLICK HERE to post comments, questions, etc. on our "Jesus and His God" Discussion Board
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